On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 17:22:44 -0500, Christ Rose
Post by Christ Rose========================================
On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 17:08:25 -0400
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Post by z***@windstream.netOn Sun, 6 Oct 2024 11:46:33 -0000 (UTC), Tentmaker 777 (unofficial)
Post by Tentmaker 777 (unofficial)Is Hell really in the Bible??
http://youtu.be/XrCTQ09z1do
What does the Bible really say about hell. Please Christians, try to understand with an open mind and heart. For some atheists, maybe this will change how you feel about God....
The Bible says a lot. You first have to know that the OT (Hebrew) word
for "hell" is "sheol". So every time you see the word "hell" in an
English OT, it is translated from the Hebrew word "sheol".
And the NT says things about "hell" also. You have to know that the NT
(Greek) word for "hell" is "hades". So every time you see the word
"hell" in an English NT, it is translated from the Greek word "hades".
James likes to make a big deal out of
the word hell being incorrect, to
undermine everyone else's Bible, but
ignores the many heretical fallacies of
the NWT abomination, used by "JW's"
You are switching subjects now. The subject is "hell" not the NWT. If
you want to discuss that, we will discuss that. But try to stay with
the subject at hand.
Post by Christ RoseThe Watchtower Bible (New World
Translation) is an abominable assault
against the Bible. It was translated by
those who were incompetent to deal with
the original languages, has changed
significantly in it's theology over the
years, has altered key Bible verses to
conform them to Watchtower theology,
lies about it's use of brackets (then
evidently removed them in their online
version at jw.org), etc. James, your
"Bible" is clearly an assault on the
real Bible.
Yet they have gotten praises from many Bible scholars. Go figure!
Post by Christ Rose1) Real language scholars roundly
condemn the NWT.
You mean like Dr Goodspeed? The translator of the "An American
Translation" Bible. Who said, "much pleased with the free, frank and
vigorous translation. [NWT] It exhibits a vast array of sound serious
learning, as I can testify.
Post by Christ RoseDr. Julius Mantey, who penned A Manual
Grammar of the Greek New Testament,
labeled the New World Translation as a
shocking mistranslation. (Mantey 30)
Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, the late New
Testament professor at Princeton
University, described the New World
Translation as a frightful
mistranslation, calling it erroneous,
pernicious, and reprehensible.
(Bruce Metzger, Theology)
Dr. William Barclay pointed out that
the deliberate distortion of truth by
this sect is evident in their New
Testament translation
Its glaringly
obvious that a group that translates the
New Testament in such a way is
intellectually dishonest. (Barclay 1953)
Dr. Robert Countess, who authored a
doctoral dissertation on the Greek text
of the New World Translation, found that
the translation has failed
significantly in preventing doctrinal
biases from influencing the translation
It must be seen as an extremely biased
work. At some points, its outright
dishonest; at others, its neither
modern nor scholarly. (Countess, 91)
British scholar Dr. H.H. Rowley
criticized the translation, stating,
From beginning to end, this volume
stands as a prime example of how not to
translate the Bible. (ibid.) Rowley
also referred to this translation as an
insult to the Word of God.
(ibid.)(Rhodes 24-27)
2) The NWT was translated by incompetent
and biased JW's.
The translators of the New World
Translation were not experts in biblical
languages. The Watchtower has been
notably resistant to disclosing the
identities of the translation committee
members. The official stance was that
the translators wished to remain
anonymous and humble, attributing all
glory to God. However, such anonymity
also blocks verification of their
credentials.
When former high-ranking member Raymond
Franz disclosed the identities of the
translators in his book Crisis of
ConscienceNathan Knorr, Frederick
Franz, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas,
and Milton Henschelit became clear that
the committee was ill-equipped for the
task (Franz, p. 50, note 15).
Out of the five committee members, four
had no training in Hebrew or Greek and
merely possessed high school diplomas.
The fifth, Frederick Franz, claimed
proficiency in Hebrew and Greek. Yet,
when tested under oath in an Edinburgh
courtroom, he failed a basic Hebrew test
(Martin 124). Franz had left the
University of Cincinnati after his
sophomore year, having not pursued any
theological studies even then (Rhodes 25).
3) The NWT has changed significantly in
One notable shift pertains to the
Watchtower Society's stance on
worshipping Jesus. Initially, the
Watchtower Society supported the worship
of Jesus. For instance, an early edition
of The Watchtower magazine from 1880
stated, to worship Christ in any form
cannot be wrong (The Watchtower 1880).
A few years later, a 1898 issue
asserted, Yes, we believe our Lord
Jesus while on earth was really
worshipped, and properly so. While he
was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God
(ibid. 1898).
However, the narrative took a turn in
1959 when The Watchtower magazine
cautioned, Do not erroneously conclude
that Christians are to worship Christ;
that is not what he taught (ibid.
1959). By 1964, the magazine declared
unequivocally that it is unscriptural
for worshipers of the living and true
God to render worship to the Son of God,
Jesus Christ (ibid. 1964).
This doctrinal evolution is mirrored in
the translations of the New World
Translation. For example, the 1961
edition of this Bible translated Hebrews
1:6 as, But when he again brings his
Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he
says: And let all Gods angels worship
him (emphasis added). In stark
contrast, the 1971 edition changed the
wording to, But when he again brings
his Firstborn into the inhabited earth,
he says: And let all Gods angels do
obeisance to him (emphasis added,
Rhodes 24-27).
4) The New World Translation has been
To demonstrate, let's examine how the
Watchtower Society translates Colossians
1:16,17.
things in heaven and on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or powers
or rulers or authorities; all things
were created by him and for him. He is
before all things, and in him all things
hold together (NIV).
The Jehovah's Witnesses' version of this
verse suggests that Christ was the first
creation of the Father, who then used
Christ to create everything else in the
universe. The New World Translation
states, "By means of him all other
things were created in the heavens and
upon the earth, the things visible and
the things invisible, no matter whether
they are thrones or lordships or
governments or authorities. All other
things have been created through him and
for him. Also, he is before all other
things and by means of him all other
things were made to exist" (jw.org) (The
NWT shows brackets here)(Watchtower
Bible and Tract Society 409).
Note, here, that although Rhodes shows
them still using brackets for the word
"other", the NWT online at jw.org has
evidently removed them. So now they
appear to be pretending that these words
they have inserted are actually in the
original languages.
The insertion of the word "other" four
times into Colossians 1:16,17 has no
basis in the Greek texts. This
translation, biased by design, aims to
support the heterodox Watchtower
doctrine that portrays Jesus as a
created entity, not as God Almighty.
However, the truth in Colossians 1:16 is
clear: Christ created all things.
Hence, Christ cannot himself be a
created being (Rhodes 27).
By contrast, Isaiah 44:24 shows that
Jehovah made all things by Himself, not
through the agency of someone else. In
this verse, God declares, "I, the LORD
[Yahweh], am the maker of all things,
stretching out the heavens by Myself,
and spreading out the earth all alone"
(NASB, emphasis added). This statement
that Yahweh made everything "by Myself"
and did it "all alone" clearly
contradicts the idea that Yahweh created
Jesus first and then made everything
else through Him. Since Isaiah 44:24
refers to Yahweh as the sole creator of
the universe, and other scriptures like
John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 call Jesus
the creator, it strongly suggests that
Jesus is indeed God (Rhodes 24-27).
5) The New World Translation lies about
The introduction to the New World
Translation claims that some words are
added in brackets to smooth out the
reading experience in English, without
altering the text's original meaning.
Yet, adding the word "other" to
Colossians 1:16,17 significantly changes
the scripture's meaning. The Watchtower
Society's aim here is clear: they want
to present Jesus as a created figure,
not as God Almighty. Interestingly, in
the 1950 version of the New World
Translation, these four instances of
"other" in these verses didn't have
brackets, making it seem like the word
was part of the original Greek text. It
wasn't until 1961, after evangelical
scholars pointed out this distortion,
that brackets were included to indicate
these were additions. Now, on their
website, it looks like they have removed
the brackets altogether (jw.org)(Rhodes
24-27).
It goes on and on and on. Lord willing,
I'll address more of these examples
later (e.g. John 1:1, etc.). Suffice it
to say that the NWT (New World
Translation), is an assault on the real
Bible, that was written by men who were
not competent to translate from the
original languages. It has changed over
the years, and always in such a way as
to accommodate Watchtower doctrines.
-----------------
Sources
William Barclay, The Expository Times,
November 1953.
Jerry and Marian Bodine, Witnessing to
the Witnesses (Irvine, CA: n.p., n.d.),
pp. 39-40.
Robert Bowman, Understanding Jehovahs
Witnesses (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1991),
p. 66.
Robert H. Countess, The Jehovahs
Witnesses New Testament (Phillipsburg,
NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1982), p. 91.
Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience
(Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983), p.
50, note 15.
jw.org. "Colossians 1 | Online Bible |
New World Translation". Jw,
https://jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/colossians/1/.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.
Julius R. Mantey, cited in Erich and
Jean Grieshaber, Exposé of Jehovahs
Witnesses (Tyler: Jean Books, 1982), p. 30.
Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults
(Minneapolis: Bethany, 1974), p. 124.
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society,
1989), p. 409.
Rhodes, R. (2001) The 10 most important
things you can say to a jehovahs
witness. Eugene, OR: Harvest House
Publishers, pp. 2427.
The Watchtower. "JWS Online Library".
Jws-library, 1 Mar. 1880,
https://jws-library.one/?file=data/1880/w_E_18800301/w_E_18800301.html.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.
ibid. Jws-library, 15 Jul. 1898,
https://jws-library.one/?file=data/1898/w_E_18980715/w_E_18980715.html.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.
The Watchtower. "JWS Online Library".
Jws-library, 1 Mar. 1880,
https://jws-library.one/?file=data/1880/w_E_18800301/w_E_18800301.html.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.
ibid. "JWS Online Library". Jws-library,
15 Jul. 1898,
https://jws-library.one/?file=data/1898/w_E_18980715/w_E_18980715.html.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.
ibid. "Do You Really Accept the
Teachings of Christ? ". Wol, 15 Jul.
1959,
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1959521.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.
ibid. "Questions From Readers ". Wol, 01
Nov. 1964, pg. 671,
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1964807.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.
Is there truth in the use of many words? Notice the principle stated
at Mt 6:7,
"for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many
words."
But you purposely missed these:
Notice this comment from Jason BeDuhn, associate professor of
religious studies at Northern Arizona University, who compared eight
major Bible translations, including the NWT. He said it was
"remarkably good" and "better by far" and "consistently better".
He also said, "the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal,
conservative translation of the original expressions of the New
Testament writers."
And he concluded that the NWT (NT):
"is one of the most accurate English translations of the New Testament
currently available" and "the most accurate of the translations
compared". (Truth in Translation:Accuracy and Bias in English
Translations of the New Testament)
[info taken from the Watchtower magazine, 12/1/04, P. 30.]
....................................................................................
"Dr. Benjamin Kedar, a Hebrew scholar in Israel, made a similar
comment concerning the New World Translation. In 1989 he said: This
work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the
text that is as accurate as possible. . . . I have never discovered in
the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the
text that it does not contain." (from wol.jw.org)
.........................................................................................
"For example, the Andover Newton Quarterly of January 1963 said: The
translation of the New Testament [NWT]is evidence of the presence in
the movement of scholars qualified to deal intelligently with the many
problems of Biblical translation." (W99,1015,p.29)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The New Testament translation was made by a committee whose
membership has never been revealeda committee that possessed an
unusual competence in Greek.Andover Newton Quarterly,
September 1966." (g87,3/22, p.14)
...............................................................................................................
I am interested in the mission work of your people, and its world
wide scope, and much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous
translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I
can testify.Letter, December 8, 1950, from Edgar J. Goodspeed,
translator of the Greek New Testament in An American Translation."
(g87.3/22, p.14)
"Notice this about Doctor Goodspeed:
"Edgar Johnson Goodspeed (18711962) was an American theologian and
scholar of Greek and the New Testament. He taught for many years at
the University of Chicago, whose collection of New Testament
manuscripts he enriched by his searches. The University's collection
is now named in his honor.
He is widely remembered for his translations of the Bible: The New
Testament: an American Translation (1923), and (with John Merlin Powis
Smith) "The Bible, An American Translation" (1935), the "Goodspeed
Bible". He is also remembered for his translation of the Apocrypha,
and that translation was included in The Complete Bible, An American
Translation (1939). Finally, Harper & Brothers issued his widely
heralded The Apostolic Fathers: An American Translation (1950).
Edgar J. Goodspeed was born in Quincy, Illinois. He graduated from
Denison University in 1890 (where he also received a doctorate in
Divinity, 1928) and the University of Chicago (Ph.D. 1898)."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_J._Goodspeed)
..........................................................................................
"New World Translation Impresses a Scholar
ACCORDING to classical Greek scholar Dr. Rijkel ten Kate, Dutch Bible
translations fail to render certain words accurately. For example, in
Luke chapter 2, we find three different Greek words (bre´phos,
pai·di´on, and pais) employed to describe the successive stages of
Jesus growth. Each of these words has a different shade of meaning.
However, in many Bibles, two or all three of these words are vaguely
rendered child. What is the correct translation?
Dr. ten Kate explains that in verse 12 the Greek word bre´phos means
a newborn, or baby. Pai·di´on, used in verse 27, means little boy
or child, and pais, found in verse 43, should be rendered boy. As
far as I know, wrote Dr. ten Kate in the March 1993 issue of Bijbel
en Wetenschap (Bible and Science), not one Dutch translation has
rendered this adequately, that is to say, completely in harmony with
the original text.
Later, Dr. ten Kate was shown the New World Translation of the Holy
Scriptures, which is available in 12 languages, including Dutch. His
reaction? I am very surprised, he said, that there is actually one
Dutch Bible in which the different use of the three Greek words
bre´phos, pai·di´on, and pais is rightly taken into account. Does the
New World Translation translate these verses in harmony with the
original Greek text? Completely in agreement, responds Dr. ten
Kate." (W95,4/15, p.32)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars,
who have sought to bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek
text as the English language is capable of expressing.Hebrew and
Greek scholar Alexander Thomson, in The Differentiator, April 1952,
pages 52-7." (g87,3/82, p. 14)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This is no ordinary interlinear: the integrity of the text is
preserved, and the English which appears below it is simply the basic
meaning of the Greek word. . . . After examining a copy, I equipped
several interested second-year Greek students with it as an auxiliary
text. . . . The translation by the anonymous committee is thoroughly
up-to-date and consistently accurate. . . . In sum, when a Witness
comes to the door, the classicist, Greek student, or Bible student
alike would do well to bring him in and place an order.From a review
of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, by
Thomas N. Winter of the University of Nebraska, appearing in The
Classical Journal, AprilMay 1974.(g87,3/22, p. 14)
...........................................................................
Hebrew and Greek scholar Alexander Thomson wrote: The translation is
evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars, who have sought to
bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek text as the English
language is capable of expressing.The Differentiator, April 1952,
pages 52-7.
............................................................................
Professor Benjamin Kedar, a Hebrew scholar in Israel, said in 1989:
In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and
translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as
the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly
confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an
understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible.
............................................................................
Eerdmans Handbook to the Bible lists the New World Translation among
the 14 main 20th-century English translations.
...........................................................................
1950 they produced and published the New World Translation of the
Christian Greek Scriptures, which Goodspeed termed an interesting and
scholarly work.
...........................................................................
Do you prefer a Bible that takes out original words, and then inserts
other words that are not in the original? Then the NIV and others like
it would be your choice.
First, please don't misunderstand me. Most Bibles we have today do get
across God's basic messages for humans, such as "love your neighbor as
yourself", etc. Thus I would take any Bible over no Bible. And I
frequently quote from the NIV, etc, since many people are more
comfortable with those translations.
But if you are after accuracy, you would want a Bible that would stay
as close as possible to the original writings. One that would not let
prejudice or superstitions or anything else influence its translation.
One that just wanted the reader to read God's word in his or her own
language, as if they were reading it in the original Hebrew, Aramaic
or Greek writing from where it was translated from, etc.
That Bible would be the NWT (New World Translation).
But don't just about EVERY Bible translation claim to be accurate and
representing the original thoughts? Yes they do. (I never saw one say
that they were deliberately 'inaccurate') So the only real way to
determine if they are accurate, is to examine their translation
against the original sources.
Here is an example. God's PERSONAL name is found THOUSANDS of times in
the OT, in the form of four consonant letters called the Hebrew
Tetragrammaton. The King James Bible for instance, only translated the
Tetragrammaton as the English word "Jehovah" in 4 places out of the
over 6000 occurrences. They are Exodus 6:3; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2;
and Isaiah 26:4. And in 3 places as part of a name: Genesis 22:14;
17:15; Judges 6:24.
The NIV, NASB, RSV, etc, has TOTALLY removed the divine name. Yet
those same Bibles have translated the NAMES of false gods such as
"Dagon" and "Baal". Are they trying to tell us something?
Post by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netSome say the NT phrase "lake of fire" is also hell. It is not. As
said, "hell" in the NT is the Greek "hades". Some also translate the
NT Greek word "Gehenna" as "hell". This is also an error. As said,
"hell" in the NT is the Greek "hades". And one more. Some translate
the NT Greek word "tartaroo" as "hell". This is also an error. "Hell"
in the NT is "hades".
So what is the Bible "hell" in the OT? What the churches teach? A
place of eternal pain of fire for the wicked? If a father burned his
son a long time as a punishment, he would be called a sadist and be
arrested. GOD IS SUPPOSED TO BE MORE RIGHTEOUS THAN US!!!
idem. The bottom line is James doesn't
think it's right for God to send people
to eternal, conscious torment, so he
changes the meaning of the Bible to lull
people into a false sense of security,
that they can get away with rejecting
Christ as Savior, get a second chance
after death to trust in Christ, then
simply cease to exist if they still
decide to reject Christ. The Bible
teaches no such thing! This is a lie
that will lead anyone who believes it to
eternal, conscious, torment in the lake
of Fire!
It's not from me. It's from the Bible. Notice carefully the principle
found at Jer 7:31,
God never even THOUGHT of a hellfire-type place.
-- NEW KING JAMES
JEREMIAH 7:31 "AND THEY HAVE BUILT THE HIGH PLACES OF TOPHET, WHICH
IS IN THE VALLEY OF THE SON OF HINNOM, TO BURN THEIR SONS AND THEIR
DAUGHTERS IN THE FIRE, WHICH I DID NOT COMMAND, NOR DID IT COME INTO
MY HEART."
Burning living beings alive would have had to "come into my heart" if
He was going to build such a monstrous place.
Post by Christ Rosehttps://www.christrose.news/eternal-torment
God has indeed shown mercy and grace in
providing atonement through Jesus
Christs death and resurrection. He was
not obligated to do this, as humanity is
undeserving of His favor (Romans
3:10-12, ESV). God's justice requires a
penalty for sin, which is death (Romans
6:23, ESV),
Right. Once a person dies, he paid for his sins.
Post by Christ Rosebut He provided a sinless
substitute in Jesus Christ, who met the
righteous demands of God's justice (2
Corinthians 5:21, ESV). Christ's death
was a substitutionary atonement,
fulfilling the requirement for sin
through His perfect life and sacrificial
death (1 Peter 3:18, ESV; Romans
3:25-26, ESV).
Yes, it had to be equal. Adam was a perfect human being who sinned.
Thus it would take another perfect human being (Jesus) to not sin, to
eliminate Adam's effect on the human population. 1 Tim 2:5,6,
(1 Timothy 2:5, 6) For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding
ransom for allthis is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.
(NWT)
Post by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netGuess what, He is by an infinite %. He no more created a hellfire
"In Old Testament times, the Israelites believed that all the dead,
both good and evil, went to a dark, unhappy place called Sheol."
Notice, both "good and evil" went to the same place when they died. We
sheol= grave= hell
-- Revised Standard
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your
might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in
Sheol, to which you are going.
So he says EVERYONE goes to sheol when they die. And what is sheol?
-- New King James
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your
might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the
grave where you are going.
Yes, the GRAVE.
But doesn't "sheol" mean "hell"? Yes, and this translation says just
DRA (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work,
nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou
art hastening. (Eccles 9:10)
So we have 3 translations: a,b,c.
a: uses the word "sheol".
b: uses the word "grave".
c: uses the word "hell".
So again we have: sheol= grave= hell
But what about "hell" in the NT? Since the NT QUOTES an OT verse that
has "hell" (sheol) , in it, and it uses "hades" to equal "hell"
(sheol"). Acts 2:31 quotes Ps 16:10"
-- King James
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt
thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
"hell".
Then notice how different Bible translations translate "hell" into
-- New King James
Acts 2:31 "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of
the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see
corruption.
Hebrew (OT) "hell" becomes Greek (NT) "Hades".
"David knew this would happen, and so he told us Christ would be
raised to life. He said God would not leave him in the grave or let
his body decay." (CEV)
Hebrew (OT) "hell" becomes Greek (NT) "grave".
hades= grave= hell
-- New King James
Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for
three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT OT & NT "HELL" IS THE GRAVE! Nothing more,
nothing less.
Lies from Satan, which if believed, will
lull people into a false sense of
security that they can get away with
rejecting God's grace and mercy in
Christ's propitiating atonement for our
sins, then simply cease to exist. No, if
you reject God's grace and mercy, there
is nothing else for a just God to do,
but give you what you chose, which is
the wrath of God in conscious torment,
for all eternity. Read the article I
showed you, which gives the Scripture
showing the many places the Bible warns
about eternal, conscious torment.
What's the correct word here? Nonsense! (sorry)
Post by Christ RoseJames thinks he's being compassionate by
convincing you
I think nothing of the kind. I just share Bible truths to anyone who
will listen, and get out of Babylon the Great. (false religion)
Post by Christ Roseyou can get away with
rejecting God's love and mercy, without
suffering eternal, conscious torment!
See my comment above.
Post by Christ RoseJames' argument seeks to diminish the
reality of eternal, conscious torment in
hell by equating terms like "Sheol" and
"Hades" simply with the grave.
Other Bible translations have done that, which I showed you before.
Answer me this then.
If sheol is a finery place of conscious torment, WHY DID JOB WANT TO
GO TO SHEOL (your hellfire place) TO GET 'RELIEF' FROM HIS AGONY???
Please give me a REASONABLE (Acts 17:2,3) explanation!
Job 14:13,
DRA
Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell [sheol],
and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt
remember me? [brackets mine]
SHEOL = "hell"
"O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, [sheol] that thou wouldest
keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me
a set time, and remember me!" (KJV) [brackets mine]
SHEOL = "grave"
-- Webster's Bible
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldst hide me in the grave, that thou wouldst
keep me secret, until thy wrath is past, that thou wouldst appoint me
a set time, and remember me!
SHEOL = "grave"
- King James
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou
wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest
appoint me a set time, and remember me!
SHEOL = "grave"
-- New King James
Job 14:13 "Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, that You would
conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set
time, and remember me!
SHEOL = "grave"
-- Living Bible
Job 14:13 Oh, that you would hide me with the dead, and forget me
there until your anger ends; but mark your calendar to think of me
again!
SHEOL = where the dead are. It DOESN'T say 'spiritually' dead. Just
all the "DEAD".
Do you want more Bible translations that say SHEOL = "grave"? I got'em
if you want them. Such as the popular NIV, etc.
Please don't just ignore the above Bible facts. If you disagree, they
need to be dealt with. I believe truth is truth, and cannot be
reasoned away.
However,
Post by Christ Rosethis reasoning is misleading and
contradicts clear biblical teachings
regarding the nature of hell. Heres a
refutation of the fallacies, supported
1. Claim: "Sheol = Grave = Hell"
The claim that Sheol, Hades, and hell
are merely synonymous with the grave is
a misunderstanding of biblical
terminology.
You mean ALL those translations above a "misunderstanding of biblical
terminology?
I don't think that all those Bible scholars who translated "grave" are
all wrong, and only you are right.
If you really want hellfire to be a real place, maybe God can fulfill
your request, just for you.
I for one would not hope that for you. You clearly have a lot of some
correct Bible knowledge. We all could do better with you than without
you. I am not your enemy or anyone's.
Post by Christ RoseWhile "Sheol" and "Hades"
can refer to the place of the dead, they
are not just physical graves, but the
realm of the dead where both the
righteous and the wicked are aware and
await judgment.
It is the literal 'grave'. Of course those that are cremated have no
actual literal grave. So "realm of the dead" better describes them.
Did you know that ALL those in "hell" get out? And they are not on
fire either.
-- King James
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works.
If they were burning in a hellfire place, they would have already been
judged adversely by God. Yet they all get out to be judged again??
Please explain.
Post by Christ Rose- Biblical Truth: Sheol in the Old
Testament is not merely the grave but is
depicted as a place where the dead
reside in conscious existence. For
example, the prophet Isaiah speaks of
the wicked being conscious and suffering
in Sheol (Isaiah 14:9-11, ESV).
9
Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
10
All of them will answer
and say to you:
You too have become as weak as we!
You have become like us!
11
Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
the sound of your harps;
maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
and worms are your covers. (ESV)
Vs 9 mentions no consciousness while in the grave. (sheol)
It says "when you come". That is when hell empties out its dead from
the ground, to fulfill Rev 20:13.
Post by Christ RoseThe same
is true in the New Testament with the
rich man suffering in Hades (Luke
16:23-24, ESV), indicating awareness and
torment, not merely lying in a grave.
Don't you know what a parable is?
"parable
noun
par·?a·?ble 'per-?-b?l
'pa-r?-
Synonyms of parable
: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle.".
Zoom in on the word FICTITIOUS. And that is the case here. Luke
16:23,24,
"23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw
Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24 And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for
I am in anguish in this flame."
Also notice here, if Jesus was God, this wouldn't make any sense:
-- New King James
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All
authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
If Jesus was God, he would already have that "authority". But it was
GIVEN to Jesus, which means he didn't have it till then.
-Hellfire is visible and audible to those in Heaven? Many assume
Abraham is in Heaven. But that is impossible, because Jesus said no
one (except Jesus) went to Heaven up to that point: John 3:13,
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from
heaven, the Son of Man. (ESV)
THUS NO ONE FROM THE OT WENT TO HEAVEN WHEN JESUS SAID THAT AT JOHN
3:13. NOT ABRAHAM NOR ANY ONE ELSE.
Post by Christ Rose2. Claim: Ecclesiastes 9:10 teaches that
Sheol is simply the grave
The verse in Ecclesiastes does not
describe the afterlife but the limited
knowledge and activity of the dead *from
the perspective of life under the sun*.
Being constantly burned alive is not activity?
Post by Christ RoseEcclesiastes reflects a human view of
death, focusing on the visible world,
not a full theological treatment of the
afterlife.
Well let's see. "the dead know nothing". (Eccles 9:5)
They don't know they are being burned alive? I guess not according to
Eccles 9:5. But they FEEL it still, while being morons.
Eccles 9:10,
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might,[a] for there
is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you
are going. (EST)
Everyone goes to hellfire? How horrible. Your god is something else.
My God destroys, doesn't torture.
Post by Christ RoseThe author is not denying the
afterlife but emphasizing the futility
of earthly pursuits apart from God.
- Biblical Truth: The context of
Ecclesiastes is key. The same book
acknowledges that the human spirit
returns to God after death (Ecclesiastes
12:7, ESV). The Bible teaches that after
death comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27,
ESV). Jesus clearly teaches the reality
of eternal punishment and separation
from God in hell (Matthew 25:46, ESV).
The "grave" does not equate to the final
destiny of the wicked.
The final destiny of the wicked is the lake of fire. Another name for
it is Gehenna. (Jerusalem's garbage dump) It symbolizes total and
complete destruction.
Post by Christ Rose3. Claim: "Hades = Grave = Hell"
In the New Testament, "Hades" refers to
the place of the dead, but not simply a
physical grave.
The grave is known to be a place of the dead. Back then, most of the
dead had a grave. Today many are incinerated to ashes, thus no
physical graves. And the atom bombs on Japan vaporized a lot of
people. Thus no physical graves.
See above those examples of translations where the translators
substituted "grave" for "sheol" and "hades".
Satan must love those demonic teachings of being tortured in a
hellfire, since he is the author of them.
Post by Christ RoseIt is a place of
conscious existence. In Luke 16:23-24,
Jesus describes a rich man suffering in
Hades while Lazarus is comforted in
Abraham's bosom. This shows that the
dead are not simply unconscious in a
grave but experience either torment or
comfort.
That's a parable, which is usually fictitious, which this one
obviously is. While in a roaring fire burning you mad, a DROP of water
is going to bring relief? Please use you God-given power of reasoning.
Post by Christ Rose- Biblical Truth: Hades is a temporary
holding place for the wicked until the
final judgment, after which they are
cast into the "lake of fire," which is
the final hell (Revelation 20:14, ESV).
This "lake of fire" is where eternal,
conscious torment occurs (Revelation
14:10-11, ESV).
I am so glad I don't follow your insane, sadistic god.
Post by Christ Rose4. Claim: "The Bible teaches that OT &
NT 'hell' is the grave! Nothing more,
nothing less."
This statement ignores the consistent
teaching of Scripture that hell is a
place of conscious torment for the
wicked.
Negatrons, it doesn't teach that at all about sheol and hades.
Post by Christ RoseJesus himself warned about hell
(Gehenna) as a place of "unquenchable
fire" (Mark 9:43-48, ESV) and described
it as a place where there is "weeping
and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42,
ESV). This cannot be referring to a mere
grave.
43. "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you
to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go to hell, into
the fire that shall never be quenched
Gehenna was Jerusalem's trash dump. We bury our trash today, they
burned it. Burning destroyed something to the point that it could not
be restored. That is why Jesus used it to symbolize COMPLETE and TOTAL
destruction.
It is noteworthy to know that living humans were never tossed into
there. Only occasionally wicked dead ones not deserving of a grave
were thrown in there.
44. "where `their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
IMMORTAL SUPER WORMS IN HELLFIRE. Churches never taught me that. What
about you?
45. "And if your foot makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for
you to enter life lame, than having two feet, to be cast into hell,
into the fire that shall never be quenched
46. "where `their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
Your Jesus is a masochist, telling people to literally cut off body
parts that caused sin. Even if God gives you mercy and forgiveness,
you still lost the body part.
And there is that immortal worm again.
Do you want to know what Jesus REALLY meant by those words? Just ask.
47. "And if your eye makes you sin, pluck it out. It is better for
you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to
be cast into hell fire
48. "where `their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
I wonder what species those immortal worms were?
Jesus used parables and symbolism in his teachings. Jesus described
God as a merciful and loving God, NOT THE MAD MONSTER OF
CHRISTENDOM.!!!
Post by Christ Rose- Biblical Truth: Hell is described as a
place of eternal punishment, not simply
a state of being dead. In Revelation
20:10, the devil, the beast, and the
false prophet are thrown into the lake
of fire, where they will be tormented
"day and night forever and ever"
(Revelation 20:10, ESV).
Don't you get it? The lake of fire is SYMBOLIC of the second DEATH.
[Rev 20:14] (Fire representing complete destruction, with no
resurrection possible) The first death is what we all inherited from
Adam. Most people will recover from that one when hell (the grave) is
empted out.
That the lake of fire is symbolic, is also shown at Rev 20:14,
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the
second death, the lake of fire. (ESV)
Can death be picked up and thrown somewhere? Can death be harmed by
literal fire? Of course not. Neither is the lake of fire literal.
Post by Christ RoseThis is an
eternal, conscious torment, not
annihilation or unconsciousness in the
grave.
5. Misuse of Acts 2:31 and Psalm 16:10
The argument attempts to confuse the
resurrection of Christ with a general
statement about the nature of hell. Acts
2:31 quotes Psalm 16:10 to affirm that
Jesus was not left in Hades (the realm
of the dead) and did not experience
bodily decay because He rose from the
dead. This is not a teaching about the
nature of hell for all people, but about
Christs resurrection.
That verse shows that the NT word for sheol is hades, since it quotes
it.
Post by Christ Rose- Biblical Truth: Jesus resurrection
shows His victory over death and the
grave, but it does not imply that
everyone avoids eternal punishment. In
fact, the Bible clearly teaches that
those who reject Christ will face
eternal judgment in hell (2
Thessalonians 1:9, ESV).
NEGATRONS. Not in "hell". Recall, everyone gets OUT of hell.
Then even "hell" is tossed into the lake of fire. So hell (graves)
will be no more. Put on your thinking cap. This all makes sense, and
is the Bible's true teachings.
Post by Christ RoseThe Bible consistently teaches that hell
is not merely the grave but a place of
eternal, conscious torment for those who
reject Christ. The false teaching that
denies the reality of hell contradicts
Jesus' clear warnings and the broader
teaching of Scripture.
- Eternal punishment and torment are
described in Matthew 25:41-46.
- Revelation 14:9-11 describes the
conscious torment of those who worship
the beast.
And you believe the "beast" to be literal? Is it Bigfoot? Or maybe the
Locke Ness Monster? Where is it today? I don't see it anywhere.
Of course it couldn't possibly be something that is beast-like, such
as nations with a beastly personality. No, not that.
Post by Christ Rose- The rich man in Hades, aware and in
torment, shows that the afterlife is not
unconscious existence (Luke 16:23-24).
It is sad if you take parables as literal.
Post by Christ RoseThese teachings underscore the
seriousness of rejecting Christ and
affirm the reality of hell as a place of
eternal punishment.
Actually, they affirm the fact that the hellfire teachings are
teachings direct from the father of the lie, Satan the Devil and his
demons:
- New King James
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some
will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and
doctrines of demons,
Sincerely James.
Animal species are disappearing
like smoke does in the air.
Go to jw.org for
Bible answers.
10/23/2024
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