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AI Argument for Universal Salvation REVISITED
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Total Victory of Christ (unofficial)
2024-09-01 08:35:37 UTC
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AI Argument for Universal Salvation REVISITED



This is the extended argument for Universal Salvation presented in this video, originally based on, and resulting from, my debate with AInn1. God is all-loving and desires all people to be...
z***@windstream.net
2024-09-09 15:00:56 UTC
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On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 08:35:37 -0000 (UTC), Total Victory of Christ
Post by Total Victory of Christ (unofficial)
AI Argument for Universal Salvation REVISITED
http://youtu.be/97B_BfOo_a8
This is the extended argument for Universal Salvation presented in this video, originally based on, and resulting from, my debate with AInn1. God is all-loving and desires all people to be...
Yes, Hitler and others like him over the centuries, deserve to be
forgiven. Or do they? Wouldn't it be nice to have Hitler walking
around again? Esp in the Jewish area. Or Saddam Hussein, or Mussolini,
etc, etc.

There is going to be a resurrection of both the bad and the good. Will
such ones be in that resurrection? (Acts 24:15) They certainly qualify
as being the "bad" ones.

So, what does the Bible say? Are those excessively wicked people going
to be resurrected? As far as I know, no:

-- International English
Acts 24:15 I have the same belief in God that these Jews have--the
hope that all people, good and bad, will be raised from death.

Continuing on, then it has been taught to me from Catholicism, that
right after that 2nd resurrection, the wicked go to hellfire, and the
good to Heaven. BLEEP!!! The Bible doesn't teach that. If you want to
teach that, by all means, but it is a human fantasy. Why?

The apostle Paul was given this Bible knowledge. Carefully notice what
it says:

The maximum price for sin; death. Ro 6:7,23,

"7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 23 For the
wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ
Jesus our Lord." (NIV)

Thus when all those people before Christ's time and during, are
resurrected, they will not be judged on their past lives because they
are 'sinless' by being "freed" from sin. Rather they will be judged on
how they conduct themselves FROM THEN ON. And of course they must
accept Jesus at that time in order to get eternal life. (Joh 14:6)

So does that include Hitler and the rest? Well we know that the
betrayer Judas, will never be resurrected again, for Jesus called him
the "son of destruction". So, he was not tossed into hades, but
instead to Gehenna, which represents everlasting destruction. (Joh
17:12)

Thus all people that are in sheol (OT=hell, NT=hades), will get out
"freed from sin". (Rom 6:7) They paid their dues for sin, by dying.
But what about the exceedingly wicked like Hitler get out?

If Hitler was tossed into hades (hell), he definitely will get out:

-- King James
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works.

-- New King James
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death
and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were
judged, each one according to his works.

According to Paul, also those in "hell" (sheol, hades) are emptied out
and sinless. So there is a large time gap between them just getting
out, and when they are judged.

Now GEHENNA and the lake of fire are the places where there is no
resurrection. It is represented by fire showing permanent destruction.
Jesus showed that Judas was tossed (figuratively speaking) in there.
Gehenna is not "hell", and neither is the lake of fire hell. Gehenna
and the lake of fire refer to the same place. A place of non-existence
for ever. Tortured in the sense of never getting out of there.

Gehenna was the name of Jerusalem's garbage dump. People who were
familiar with it, never saw anything tossed into it, ever come back.
Thus its symbolism was perfect for describing certain Bible passages.

I know these Bible ideas are strange to many, but they are all Bible
truths. (2 Tim 3:16) I know they are hard to grasp since they have
been drummed into our heads from youth. But just research them to see
that they are true.

Sincerely James.
Who has Bible truths:
politicians, clergy, doctors?
Go to jw.org
for answers.
9/9/2024
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Christ Rose
2024-09-09 17:07:19 UTC
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========================================
On Mon, 09 Sep 2024 11:00:56 -0400
<***@4ax.com>
***@windstream.net wrote:
========================================
Post by z***@windstream.net
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 08:35:37 -0000 (UTC), Total Victory of Christ
Post by Total Victory of Christ (unofficial)
AI Argument for Universal Salvation REVISITED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=97B_BfOo_a8
This is the extended argument for Universal Salvation presented in this video, originally
based on, and resulting from, my debate with AInn1. God is all-loving and desires all people
to be...
Yes, Hitler and others like him over the centuries, deserve to be
forgiven. Or do they? Wouldn't it be nice to have Hitler walking
around again? Esp in the Jewish area. Or Saddam Hussein, or Mussolini,
etc, etc.
There is going to be a resurrection of both the bad and the good. Will
such ones be in that resurrection? (Acts 24:15) They certainly qualify
as being the "bad" ones.
So, what does the Bible say? Are those excessively wicked people going
-- International English
Acts 24:15 I have the same belief in God that these Jews have--the
hope that all people, good and bad, will be raised from death.
Continuing on, then it has been taught to me from Catholicism, that
right after that 2nd resurrection, the wicked go to hellfire, and the
good to Heaven. BLEEP!!! The Bible doesn't teach that. If you want to
teach that, by all means, but it is a human fantasy. Why?
Lies from Watchtower/Satan.
Post by z***@windstream.net
The apostle Paul was given this Bible knowledge. Carefully notice what
The maximum price for sin; death. Ro 6:7,23,
"7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 23 For the
wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ
Jesus our Lord." (NIV)
1) The context shows that it is not an
individual's death which frees him from
the penalty of sin, but a believer's
baptism into Christ's death to sin,
which frees him from the obligation to sin:

“Or do you not know that as many of us
as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into His death? Therefore we
were buried with Him through baptism
into death, that just as Christ was
raised from the dead by the glory of the
Father, even so we also should walk in
newness of life.” (Romans 6:3–4, NKJV)

A) This is not even talking about being
saved from the penalty of eternal
damnation (although that is also only
through faith in Christ's death for our
sins, not through our death). It's
talking about how the believer in Christ
can be free from the power of sin in His
daily life.

B) This death payment Christ made, only
benefits "as many of us as were baptized
into Christ Jesus". It is not a benefit
which is applied to any unbeliever. If
you rely on Christ's death as the
atonement for your sin, and believe in
your heart God raised Him from the dead
(Romans 10:9-10), you are free from the
penalty of eternal damnation, and from
the obligation to sin. If you're not,
then you're not.

C) No person's death, other than
Christ's, has the ability to atone for
sin, or release the person from the
penalty or power of sin. This benefit is
received only through faith in Christ.

2) Watchtower/Satan does not use the
safeguard of clear reference when
twisting the Scriptures.

The principle of clear reference is that
when doctrine is clearly established in
a large body of Scripture (such as that
only Christ's death can atone for our
sins), you don't then seek out a verse
which on the surface, seems conducive to
promoting a contrary understanding.

That's all Watchtower does. They either
modify their own NWT translation to
promote contradictory teachings, or they
go to the less clear revelation of the
Old Testament, or they find some verse
of Scripture which appears to confirm
what they say on the surface, then they
twist it to say something that
contradicts the clear abundance of
revelation on the subject.

For a full demonstration of how the
Watchtower's NWT Bible is an
"abomination" of heresy, see this article:

<***@christrose>

Or, see here, if you cannot retrieve
message-ID's:

http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=172589937000
Post by z***@windstream.net
Thus when all those people before Christ's time and during, are
resurrected, they will not be judged on their past lives because they
are 'sinless' by being "freed" from sin. Rather they will be judged on
how they conduct themselves FROM THEN ON.
Lies. See above. Only Christ's death can
provide an atonement for sin, or free
anyone from the penalty of eternal
damnation, or from the power of sin in
daily living.
Post by z***@windstream.net
And of course they must
accept Jesus at that time in order to get eternal life. (Joh 14:6)
More lies. There will be no opportunity
for anyone who has been raised from the
dead as an unbeliever, to then trust in
Christ for salvation:

1) You have till you died to trust in
Christ as Savior. After that, comes the
judgement:

“And as it is appointed for men to die
once, but after this the judgment,”
(Hebrews 9:27, NKJV)

2) As we see from the judgment, there's
no one there being given the opportunity
to trust in Christ for salvation. They
are judged out of the Book of Life:

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. And I saw the
dead, small and great, standing before
God, and books were opened. And another
book was opened, which is the Book of
Life. And the dead were judged according
to their works, by the things which were
written in the books. The sea gave up
the dead who were in it, and Death and
Hades delivered up the dead who were in
them. And they were judged, each one
according to his works. Then Death and
Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. And anyone not
found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation
20:11–15, NKJV)

3) Everyone there will be cast into the
lake of fire, which includes conscious
torment for all of eternity:

“he himself shall also drink of the wine
of the wrath of God, which is poured out
full strength into the cup of His
indignation. He shall be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of
the holy angels and in the presence of
the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment
ascends forever and ever; and they have
no rest day or night, who worship the
beast and his image, and whoever
receives the mark of his name.””
(Revelation 14:10–11, NKJV)

“The devil, who deceived them, was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet
are. And they will be tormented day and
night forever and ever.” (Revelation
20:10, NKJV)

They have "no rest" day and night,
"forever and ever", and the smoke of
their "torment", goes up "forever and
ever". This is not referring to
annihilation or cessation of existence,
but to conscious eternal torment that
never ends.
Post by z***@windstream.net
So does that include Hitler and the rest? Well we know that the
betrayer Judas, will never be resurrected again, for Jesus called him
the "son of destruction". So, he was not tossed into hades, but
instead to Gehenna, which represents everlasting destruction. (Joh
17:12)
There's no need for a fire that "cannot
be quenched" to burn "forever and ever",
if one is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist after being judged at
the Great White throne. These people
have "no rest" day or night, and the
smoke of their "torment" goes up
"forever and ever". That's not cessation
of existence, but of conscious, eternal
torment.

Convincing people they can reject Christ
as Savior now, then have an option to do
so later, or that even if they reject
Christ later, they will simply cease to
exist, encourages people to reject
Christ as Savior, and to risk their
eternal destiny on the false hope that
they will have another chance to accept
Christ later. The Bible says it is
appointed unto man once to die, and
after this the judgement. The judgment
includes being thrown into the Lake of
Fire "forever and ever", and to
experience "torment" day and night,
"forever and ever".
Post by z***@windstream.net
Thus all people that are in sheol (OT=hell, NT=hades), will get out
"freed from sin". (Rom 6:7) They paid their dues for sin, by dying.
But what about the exceedingly wicked like Hitler get out?
idem.

Pure, twisted lies. As Peter notes:

“as also in all his epistles, speaking
in them of these things, in which are
some things hard to understand, which
untaught and unstable people twist to
their own destruction, as they do also
the rest of the Scriptures.” (2 Peter
3:16, NKJV)
Bible contradicting lies. Death and
Hades (hell) will be cast into the Lake
of Fire:

“Then Death and Hades were cast into the
lake of fire. This is the second death.”
(Revelation 20:14, NKJV)

So for the unsaved dead, it will be out
of the frying pan and into the fire, so
to speak. Even their former abode of
Hades will be thrown into the lake of
fire with them.
Post by z***@windstream.net
-- King James
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works.
-- New King James
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death
and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were
judged, each one according to his works.
According to Paul, also those in "hell" (sheol, hades) are emptied out
and sinless.
ibid. It mentions nothing at all about
Hades or Sheol being "sinless". Death
and Hades themselves will be cast into
the lake of fire with everyone who
rejected Christ before dying.
Post by z***@windstream.net
So there is a large time gap between them just getting
out, and when they are judged.
The Bible teaches no such thing. It
mentions the second resurrection as
occurring at the Great White Throne
judgment, at which time everyone who
never trusted Christ before they died,
and the Hades they abode in will be cast
into the lake of fire, where they will
have "no rest day or night", and will
suffer "torment" that lasts "forever and
ever".
Post by z***@windstream.net
Now GEHENNA and the lake of fire are the places where there is no
resurrection.
And that's where all the unsaved dead
are said to be thrown at the Great White
Throne judgment in Revelation 20.
Post by z***@windstream.net
It is represented by fire showing permanent destruction.
The word "destruction" does not
necessitate a cessation of existence,
and the context of being in "torment"
and having no rest "day or night" for a
period defined as "forever and ever"
makes such an understanding impossible
as it regards the eternal destiny of the
lost . As has been shown repeatedly,
this word is repeatedly applied in cases
where it is impossible that it means
cessation of existence:

The Greek word translated as
"destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
is *ὄλεθρος* (ólethros), which is often
understood as ruin, devastation, or loss
rather than cessation of existence. This
word appears in other passages where its
meaning clearly cannot refer to
annihilation or non-existence. Here are
several examples:

1 Timothy 6:9

"But those who desire to be rich fall
into temptation, into a snare, into many
senseless and harmful desires that
plunge people into ruin and destruction"
(1 Timothy 6:9, ESV).

Here, the term *ὄλεθρος* refers to a
moral and spiritual ruin that befalls
those who pursue wealth at the expense
of their faith. It describes a
disastrous state of life that leads to
spiritual corruption but does not imply
cessation of existence. People who fall
into this destruction continue to live,
demonstrating that *ὄλεthros* here
refers to a state of moral and spiritual
devastation rather than annihilation.

1 Corinthians 5:5

"You are to deliver this man to Satan
for the destruction of the flesh, so
that his spirit may be saved in the day
of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 5:5, ESV).

In this passage, *ὄλεθρος* refers to the
destruction of the flesh as a
disciplinary measure, but it does not
suggest that the individual ceases to
exist or that his body ceased to exist.
Instead, it indicates physical suffering
or the ruin of sinful behavior, with the
ultimate aim being the person's
spiritual salvation. This shows that
*ὄlethros* in this context cannot mean
annihilation but rather a transformative
or corrective process.

1 Thessalonians 5:3

"While people are saying, 'There is
peace and security,' then sudden
destruction will come upon them as labor
pains come upon a pregnant woman, and
they will not escape" (1 Thessalonians
5:3, ESV).

The word *ὄλεθρος* is used here to
describe a sudden calamity or
devastating judgment, but the analogy to
labor pains shows that it cannot mean
the cessation of existence. Labor pains
result in a significant event (the birth
of a child), not the end of life. Thus,
the destruction here refers to an
inescapable judgment, not annihilation.

2 Peter 2:1

"But false prophets also arose among the
people, just as there will be false
teachers among you, who will secretly
bring in destructive heresies, even
denying the Master who bought them,
bringing upon themselves swift
destruction" (2 Peter 2:1, ESV).

The *ὄλεθρος* in this verse refers to
the spiritual ruin and judgment brought
upon false teachers. They continue to
live and teach, which makes it
impossible to interpret *ὄlethros* as
cessation of existence. Instead, it
signifies moral and spiritual
devastation that leads to final judgment.

In these contexts, *ὄλεthρος* does not
refer to the end of existence but rather
to a state of moral, spiritual, or
physical ruin, often tied to judgment or
severe consequences. This understanding
supports the interpretation in 2
Thessalonians 1:9, where "eternal
destruction" refers to a state of
perpetual ruin and separation from God's
presence, not annihilation or non-existence.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Jesus showed that Judas was tossed (figuratively speaking) in there.
Gehenna is not "hell", and neither is the lake of fire hell. Gehenna
and the lake of fire refer to the same place. A place of non-existence
for ever. Tortured in the sense of never getting out of there.
The Bible says no such thing on any
point. It shows (as seen above), that
even the former abode of the unsaved
dead (Hades), will itself be flung into
the lake of fire. The bible shows these
people will experience "torment" and no
rest, "forever and ever", not that they
will cease to exist.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Gehenna was the name of Jerusalem's garbage dump. People who were
familiar with it, never saw anything tossed into it, ever come back.
Thus its symbolism was perfect for describing certain Bible passages.
The symbolism is correct, because the
fire never went out. One does not need
an eternal fire to destroy something
which is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist.
Post by z***@windstream.net
I know these Bible
[Watchtower/Satanic]
Post by z***@windstream.net
ideas are strange to many,
--As they should be. You yourself
acknowledge them as strange, because
they do not come from Scripture, but
only from a labored twisting of Scripture.
Post by z***@windstream.net
but they are all Bible
truths. (2 Tim 3:16)
No they are not, as shown above.
Post by z***@windstream.net
I know they are hard to grasp since they have
been drummed into our heads from youth. But just research them to see
that they are true.
idem.

Also, as a side note, you mention here
your teaching as if it were "Bible
truths". Then in the very next
statement, you say these ideas (your
Bible teachings assumed) are "hard to
grasp since they have been drummed into
our heads from youth".

Thus, you switch your meaning
mid-sentence. You start out by
presenting your own claims as "Bible
truths", then imply these "Bible truths"
are hard to grasp because they (your
teachings you claim are from the Bible)
have been "drummed into our heads from
youth".

Maybe your "Jehovah's
Witnesses"/Satanic/Watchtower ideas have
been drummed into your head since you
were a youth.

Thus, you unwittingly confess to the
truth, which is that it is your
heretical teachings which have been
drummed into people's heads since their
youth ("Jehovah's Witnesses"), not the
"Bible truths" which your false
teachings contradict.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
z***@windstream.net
2024-09-12 01:33:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Sep 2024 12:07:19 -0500, Christ Rose
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Mon, 09 Sep 2024 11:00:56 -0400
========================================
Post by z***@windstream.net
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 08:35:37 -0000 (UTC), Total Victory of Christ
Post by Total Victory of Christ (unofficial)
AI Argument for Universal Salvation REVISITED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=97B_BfOo_a8
This is the extended argument for Universal Salvation presented in this video, originally
based on, and resulting from, my debate with AInn1. God is all-loving and desires all people
to be...
Yes, Hitler and others like him over the centuries, deserve to be
forgiven. Or do they? Wouldn't it be nice to have Hitler walking
around again? Esp in the Jewish area. Or Saddam Hussein, or Mussolini,
etc, etc.
There is going to be a resurrection of both the bad and the good. Will
such ones be in that resurrection? (Acts 24:15) They certainly qualify
as being the "bad" ones.
So, what does the Bible say? Are those excessively wicked people going
-- International English
Acts 24:15 I have the same belief in God that these Jews have--the
hope that all people, good and bad, will be raised from death.
Continuing on, then it has been taught to me from Catholicism, that
right after that 2nd resurrection, the wicked go to hellfire, and the
good to Heaven. BLEEP!!! The Bible doesn't teach that. If you want to
teach that, by all means, but it is a human fantasy. Why?
Lies from Watchtower/Satan.
You got that messed up. It's TRUTHS from the Watchtower, lies from
Satan.

Satan has pulled off a good one with his hellfire doctrine. He
actually got millions to believe him. (I was one of those also when in
Catholicism) Back then they didn't go so much with the Bible, as with
church doctrine. Anyway, since then all of my religious beliefs come
from the Bible.
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
The apostle Paul was given this Bible knowledge. Carefully notice what
The maximum price for sin; death. Ro 6:7,23,
"7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 23 For the
wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ
Jesus our Lord." (NIV)
1) The context shows that it is not an
individual's death which frees him from
the penalty of sin, but a believer's
baptism into Christ's death to sin,
“Or do you not know that as many of us
as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into His death? Therefore we
were buried with Him through baptism
into death, that just as Christ was
raised from the dead by the glory of the
Father, even so we also should walk in
newness of life.” (Romans 6:3–4, NKJV)
A) This is not even talking about being
saved from the penalty of eternal
damnation (although that is also only
through faith in Christ's death for our
sins, not through our death). It's
talking about how the believer in Christ
can be free from the power of sin in His
daily life.
B) This death payment Christ made, only
benefits "as many of us as were baptized
into Christ Jesus". It is not a benefit
which is applied to any unbeliever. If
you rely on Christ's death as the
atonement for your sin, and believe in
your heart God raised Him from the dead
(Romans 10:9-10), you are free from the
penalty of eternal damnation, and from
the obligation to sin. If you're not,
then you're not.
C) No person's death, other than
Christ's, has the ability to atone for
sin, or release the person from the
penalty or power of sin. This benefit is
received only through faith in Christ.
Then Paul must have been on too much wine when he wrote:

-- New King James
Romans 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

-- New King James
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yes, keep Paul away from the wine. (:>)
Post by Christ Rose
2) Watchtower/Satan does not use the
safeguard of clear reference when
twisting the Scriptures.
The principle of clear reference is that
when doctrine is clearly established in
a large body of Scripture (such as that
only Christ's death can atone for our
sins), you don't then seek out a verse
which on the surface, seems conducive to
promoting a contrary understanding.
You forget. Those who are resurrected (like the millions who lived
before Christ) still have to accept Christ, or they will not be saved.
So yes, Jesus' death paved the way for salvation.

Also, the leader of the JW organization is the Lord Jesus. Through
deep prayer and research of the Bible, they get their Bible facts.
Post by Christ Rose
contradicts the clear abundance of
revelation on the subject.
Then what you are suggesting is to NOT research the Bible to find a
Scripture to support a doctrine. One of which you say we 'twist'.

Well the Bible doesn't agree with you. See how I 'twist' the following
Scripture:

"10. Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night
to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that
they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures
daily to find out whether these things were so." (NKJV)

Please untwist that Scripture so that we can see what it really says.
(:>(
Post by Christ Rose
For a full demonstration of how the
Watchtower's NWT Bible is an
Here we go again. It's either a zillion years ago (which has nothing
to do with today) or downright lies.

Many people use the changes made in the Organization since the
beginning to downgrade it. Believe it or not, the true religion keeps
upgrading itself until the end:

-- New King James
Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is like the shining sun, that
shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.

You see. That's where we are different from the churches. If we find a
doctrine that is unclear etc, we upgrade to the latest info on it.
Where the churches stay stagnated in their false doctrines (like
hellfire-- God is not a sadist). A good hellfire sermon can make them
reach deep into their pockets.
Post by Christ Rose
Or, see here, if you cannot retrieve
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=172589937000
OK, I looked it up. There is what is claimed to be Bible scholars
saying the NWT is a piece of junk. I also have Bible scholars saying
it was a great piece of work. Even if the NWT translators only had a
Kindergarten diploma, they would NEVER have received such beneficial
claims from other Bible scholars.

Looking at their Kindergarten diplomas, we hear this:

First, you need to scold most ALL Bible translations for removing God'
name from their Bible. In the OT, it is found around 7000 times in the
form of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton! Some Bible translations show it
ZERO times. Compare these two:

(Psalm 83:18) May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You
alone are the Most High over all the earth. (NWT)

-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Psalms 83:18 Let them know that you alone,
whose name is the Lord,
are the Most High over all the earth.

"Lord" is a title NOT a name. So get your tongue lashing ready to
criticize MOST modern Bible translations who have cut out God's name
in their Bibles.

Also notice how they make God a LIAR!! God said His NAME is "Lord".
Then notice these two:

- King James
Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not
give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

(Isaiah 42:8) I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one
else, Nor my praise to graven images. (NWT)

I could do this over 6,900 times. But you would probably ignore it.
Out of sight, out of mind. Right?

Now back to the NWT.

For just one example of praises for the NWT, by a renowned translator
of the Bible:


“I am interested in the mission work of your people, and its world
wide scope, and much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous
translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I
can testify.”—Letter, December 8, 1950, from Edgar J. Goodspeed,
translator of the Greek “New Testament” in An American Translation."
(g87.3/22, p.14)


"Notice this about Doctor Goodspeed:

"Edgar Johnson Goodspeed (1871–1962) was an American theologian and
scholar of Greek and the New Testament. He taught for many years at
the University of Chicago, whose collection of New Testament
manuscripts he enriched by his searches. The University's collection
is now named in his honor.

He is widely remembered for his translations of the Bible: The New
Testament: an American Translation (1923), and (with John Merlin Powis
Smith) "The Bible, An American Translation" (1935), the "Goodspeed
Bible". He is also remembered for his translation of the Apocrypha,
and that translation was included in The Complete Bible, An American
Translation (1939). Finally, Harper & Brothers issued his widely
heralded The Apostolic Fathers: An American Translation (1950).

Edgar J. Goodspeed was born in Quincy, Illinois. He graduated from
Denison University in 1890 (where he also received a doctorate in
Divinity, 1928) and the University of Chicago (Ph.D. 1898)."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_J._Goodspeed)

So how could a renowned Bible scholar say such good things about the
NWT? Did he also only have a Kindergarten diploma too?
Post by Christ Rose
,
Post by z***@windstream.net
Thus when all those people before Christ's time and during, are
resurrected, they will not be judged on their past lives because they
are 'sinless' by being "freed" from sin. Rather they will be judged on
how they conduct themselves FROM THEN ON.
Lies. See above. Only Christ's death can
provide an atonement for sin, or free
anyone from the penalty of eternal
damnation, or from the power of sin in
daily living.
Then you are calling Paul a liar at Rom 6:7,23? You are free to do so.
But JW's go by the Bible even when they are mocked and even persecuted
for doing so.
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
And of course they must
accept Jesus at that time in order to get eternal life. (Joh 14:6)
More lies. There will be no opportunity
for anyone who has been raised from the
dead as an unbeliever, to then trust in
What about all the Pagan inhabitants that lived and died eons ago. If
you were one of them, would you say you would never accept Christ? If
so, let's hope the others do better. Sorry, but thank God you are not
in charge of the resurrection.
Post by Christ Rose
1) You have till you died to trust in
Christ as Savior.
I always have since becoming a JW. Do you attend the memorial of
Christ's death? It was something he said to do in remembrance of him:

-- New King James
Luke 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it
to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in
remembrance of Me.''
Post by Christ Rose
After that, comes the
Yes, but we don't know the time interval between the resurrections and
the judgments.
Post by Christ Rose
“And as it is appointed for men to die
once, but after this the judgment,”
(Hebrews 9:27, NKJV)
That is true. Paul is showing us the 'appointment' of death to all men
that are Adam's offspring. There is no getting out of it. There is no
reincarnation where a person keeps getting born and dying over and
over again.
Post by Christ Rose
2) As we see from the judgment, there's
no one there being given the opportunity
to trust in Christ for salvation. They
Again, it doesn't give the time interval.
Post by Christ Rose
“Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. And I saw the
dead, small and great, standing before
God, and books were opened. And another
book was opened, which is the Book of
Life. And the dead were judged according
to their works, by the things which were
written in the books. The sea gave up
the dead who were in it, and Death and
Hades delivered up the dead who were in
them. And they were judged, each one
according to his works. Then Death and
Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. And anyone not
found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation
20:11–15, NKJV)
So, you are saying Paul lied, and even though they died, they are
resurrected with their sins. You just condemned most all those before
Christ with a negative judgment.

For example, you can kiss off all the ancient Egyptians. They
worshipped false gods and never got to hear from Jesus. DOES THAT
SOUND FAIR TO YOU? They were just born at the wrong time. Is that
their fault?

Of course, I shouldn't be surprised. Christendom's god is a sadistic
monster eternally frying His bad children. Thank God I got away from
that thing. It is like a beautiful lamb which is unzipping its coating
and you can see the Devil inside. Eternal suffering is a DEMON
doctrine, which are going to be given in the last days:

-- New King James
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some
will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and
doctrines of demons,
Post by Christ Rose
3) Everyone there will be cast into the
lake of fire, which includes conscious
I know, I know, I was once living in that sewer. But just think for a
second what you just said. Now what if a close relative, or even a
family member is sent to your hellfire. Could you honestly enjoy your
life knowing that every second that person is suffering beyond
comprehension?
Post by Christ Rose
“he himself shall also drink of the wine
of the wrath of God, which is poured out
full strength into the cup of His
indignation. He shall be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of
the holy angels and in the presence of
the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment
ascends forever and ever; and they have
no rest day or night, who worship the
beast and his image, and whoever
receives the mark of his name.””
(Revelation 14:10–11, NKJV)
“The devil, who deceived them, was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet
are. And they will be tormented day and
night forever and ever.” (Revelation
20:10, NKJV)
They have "no rest" day and night,
"forever and ever", and the smoke of
their "torment", goes up "forever and
ever". This is not referring to
annihilation or cessation of existence,
but to conscious eternal torment that
never ends.
How can you possibly call your god a god of love, when he does things
MUCH WORSE than Hitler ever did.
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
So does that include Hitler and the rest? Well we know that the
betrayer Judas, will never be resurrected again, for Jesus called him
the "son of destruction". So, he was not tossed into hades, but
instead to Gehenna, which represents everlasting destruction. (Joh
17:12)
There's no need for a fire that "cannot
be quenched" to burn "forever and ever",
if one is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist after being judged at
the Great White throne. These people
have "no rest" day or night, and the
smoke of their "torment" goes up
"forever and ever". That's not cessation
of existence, but of conscious, eternal
torment.
Since Gehenna represented complete destruction, by putting out the
fire would have meant the punishment ended. And that is not what the
Bible teaches. The fire (destruction) goes on forever.
Post by Christ Rose
Convincing people they can reject Christ
as Savior now, then have an option to do
so later, or that even if they reject
Christ later, they will simply cease to
exist, encourages people to reject
Christ as Savior, and to risk their
eternal destiny on the false hope that
they will have another chance to accept
Christ later. The Bible says it is
appointed unto man once to die, and
after this the judgement. The judgment
includes being thrown into the Lake of
Fire "forever and ever", and to
experience "torment" day and night,
"forever and ever".
I am sorry you feel that way about OUR loving God. But soon you will
find out the real truth. I just hope it happens before it's too late.
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
Thus all people that are in sheol (OT=hell, NT=hades), will get out
"freed from sin". (Rom 6:7) They paid their dues for sin, by dying.
But what about the exceedingly wicked like Hitler get out?
idem.
“as also in all his epistles, speaking
in them of these things, in which are
some things hard to understand, which
untaught and unstable people twist to
their own destruction, as they do also
the rest of the Scriptures.” (2 Peter
3:16, NKJV)
Actually, since you take most things literally,
Post by Christ Rose
Bible contradicting lies. Death and
Hades (hell) will be cast into the Lake
You say the lake of fire is a literal torture chamber of fire. HOW CAN
DEATH BE TORTURED BY FIRE? Please answer.
HOW CAN HELL BE TORTURED BY FIRE? Please answer.
Post by Christ Rose
“Then Death and Hades were cast into the
lake of fire. This is the second death.”
(Revelation 20:14, NKJV)
There you have it. The lake of fire is SYMBOLIC of the "SECOND DEATH".
The first death was Adamic death, which we all inherited. The second
DEATH is forever, with no resurrection.
Post by Christ Rose
So for the unsaved dead, it will be out
of the frying pan and into the fire, so
to speak. Even their former abode of
Hades will be thrown into the lake of
fire with them.
Yes, and don't forget, Hades will be tortured by fire forever and
ever. (as will also Death)
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
-- King James
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works.
-- New King James
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death
and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were
judged, each one according to his works.
According to Paul, also those in "hell" (sheol, hades) are emptied out
and sinless.
ibid. It mentions nothing at all about
Hades or Sheol being "sinless". Death
and Hades themselves will be cast into
the lake of fire with everyone who
rejected Christ before dying.
Oh, since the apostle Paul wrote it you ignore it?
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
So there is a large time gap between them just getting
out, and when they are judged.
The Bible teaches no such thing. It
mentions the second resurrection as
occurring at the Great White Throne
judgment, at which time everyone who
never trusted Christ before they died,
and the Hades they abode in will be cast
into the lake of fire, where they will
have "no rest day or night", and will
suffer "torment" that lasts "forever and
ever".
Yes, I want to hear how "death" and "hell" are tortured. That should
be interesting. (:>)
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
Now GEHENNA and the lake of fire are the places where there is no
resurrection.
And that's where all the unsaved dead
are said to be thrown at the Great White
Throne judgment in Revelation 20.
Post by z***@windstream.net
It is represented by fire showing permanent destruction.
The word "destruction" does not
necessitate a cessation of existence,
and the context of being in "torment"
and having no rest "day or night" for a
period defined as "forever and ever"
makes such an understanding impossible
as it regards the eternal destiny of the
lost . As has been shown repeatedly,
this word is repeatedly applied in cases
where it is impossible that it means
The Greek word translated as
"destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
is *???????* (ólethros), which is often
understood as ruin, devastation, or loss
rather than cessation of existence. This
word appears in other passages where its
meaning clearly cannot refer to
annihilation or non-existence. Here are
1 Timothy 6:9
"But those who desire to be rich fall
into temptation, into a snare, into many
senseless and harmful desires that
plunge people into ruin and destruction"
(1 Timothy 6:9, ESV).
Here, the term *???????* refers to a
moral and spiritual ruin that befalls
those who pursue wealth at the expense
of their faith. It describes a
disastrous state of life that leads to
spiritual corruption but does not imply
cessation of existence. People who fall
into this destruction continue to live,
demonstrating that *???thros* here
refers to a state of moral and spiritual
devastation rather than annihilation.
1 Corinthians 5:5
"You are to deliver this man to Satan
for the destruction of the flesh, so
that his spirit may be saved in the day
of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 5:5, ESV).
In this passage, *???????* refers to the
destruction of the flesh as a
disciplinary measure, but it does not
suggest that the individual ceases to
exist or that his body ceased to exist.
Instead, it indicates physical suffering
or the ruin of sinful behavior, with the
ultimate aim being the person's
spiritual salvation. This shows that
*?lethros* in this context cannot mean
annihilation but rather a transformative
or corrective process.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
"While people are saying, 'There is
peace and security,' then sudden
destruction will come upon them as labor
pains come upon a pregnant woman, and
they will not escape" (1 Thessalonians
5:3, ESV).
The word *???????* is used here to
describe a sudden calamity or
devastating judgment, but the analogy to
labor pains shows that it cannot mean
the cessation of existence. Labor pains
result in a significant event (the birth
of a child), not the end of life. Thus,
the destruction here refers to an
inescapable judgment, not annihilation.
2 Peter 2:1
"But false prophets also arose among the
people, just as there will be false
teachers among you, who will secretly
bring in destructive heresies, even
denying the Master who bought them,
bringing upon themselves swift
destruction" (2 Peter 2:1, ESV).
The *???????* in this verse refers to
the spiritual ruin and judgment brought
upon false teachers. They continue to
live and teach, which makes it
impossible to interpret *?lethros* as
cessation of existence. Instead, it
signifies moral and spiritual
devastation that leads to final judgment.
In these contexts, *???th???* does not
refer to the end of existence but rather
to a state of moral, spiritual, or
physical ruin, often tied to judgment or
severe consequences. This understanding
supports the interpretation in 2
Thessalonians 1:9, where "eternal
destruction" refers to a state of
perpetual ruin and separation from God's
presence, not annihilation or non-existence.
But you would have to admit that it also means no conscious life.
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
Jesus showed that Judas was tossed (figuratively speaking) in there.
Gehenna is not "hell", and neither is the lake of fire hell. Gehenna
and the lake of fire refer to the same place. A place of non-existence
for ever. Tortured in the sense of never getting out of there.
The Bible says no such thing on any
point. It shows (as seen above), that
even the former abode of the unsaved
dead (Hades), will itself be flung into
the lake of fire. The bible shows these
people will experience "torment" and no
rest, "forever and ever", not that they
will cease to exist.
Your god is soooo cruel!

It is a pleasure to worship the real God of love. (1 John 4:8)
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
Gehenna was the name of Jerusalem's garbage dump. People who were
familiar with it, never saw anything tossed into it, ever come back.
Thus its symbolism was perfect for describing certain Bible passages.
The symbolism is correct, because the
fire never went out. One does not need
an eternal fire to destroy something
which is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist.
As I mentioned above, an ongoing fire represents continued destruction
that will not stop.
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
I know these Bible
[Watchtower/Satanic]
Post by z***@windstream.net
ideas are strange to many,
--As they should be. You yourself
acknowledge them as strange, because
they do not come from Scripture, but
only from a labored twisting of Scripture.
They are strange because the religious leaders of Christendom have
here at the end times, teach doctrines of demons. (1 Tim 4:1)
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
but they are all Bible
truths. (2 Tim 3:16)
No they are not, as shown above.
Post by z***@windstream.net
I know they are hard to grasp since they have
been drummed into our heads from youth. But just research them to see
that they are true.
idem.
Also, as a side note, you mention here
your teaching as if it were "Bible
truths". Then in the very next
statement, you say these ideas (your
Bible teachings assumed) are "hard to
grasp since they have been drummed into
our heads from youth".
Yes, I could have worded that better. What I was trying to say was
that the churches have drummed into our heads church doctrines (like
hellfire, Trinity, immortal soul, etc, etc) Thus to hear there is no
hellfire, and God is one not three, and a soul can physically die,
will sound strange to die-hard church goers.
Post by Christ Rose
Thus, you switch your meaning
mid-sentence. You start out by
presenting your own claims as "Bible
truths", then imply these "Bible truths"
are hard to grasp because they (your
teachings you claim are from the Bible)
have been "drummed into our heads from
youth".
If you want to rub my nose in it go ahead. I should have been more
careful.
Post by Christ Rose
Maybe your "Jehovah's
Witnesses"/Satanic/Watchtower ideas have
been drummed into your head since you
were a youth.
I wish. I was a Catholic all through my military service.
Post by Christ Rose
Thus, you unwittingly confess to the
truth, which is that it is your
heretical teachings which have been
drummed into people's heads since their
youth ("Jehovah's Witnesses"), not the
"Bible truths" which your false
teachings contradict.
Oh, do I get the last word here? OK

Have a good one.

Sincerely James.
Who has Bible truths:
politicians, clergy, doctors?
Go to jw.org
for answers.
9/11/2024
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Christ Rose
2024-09-12 03:40:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
========================================
On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 21:33:24 -0400
<***@4ax.com>
***@windstream.net wrote:
========================================
Post by z***@windstream.net
On Mon, 9 Sep 2024 12:07:19 -0500, Christ Rose
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Mon, 09 Sep 2024 11:00:56 -0400
========================================
Post by z***@windstream.net
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 08:35:37 -0000 (UTC), Total Victory of Christ
Post by Total Victory of Christ (unofficial)
AI Argument for Universal Salvation REVISITED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=97B_BfOo_a8
This is the extended argument for Universal Salvation presented in this video, originally
based on, and resulting from, my debate with AInn1. God is all-loving and desires all people
to be...
Yes, Hitler and others like him over the centuries, deserve to be
forgiven. Or do they? Wouldn't it be nice to have Hitler walking
around again? Esp in the Jewish area. Or Saddam Hussein, or Mussolini,
etc, etc.
There is going to be a resurrection of both the bad and the good. Will
such ones be in that resurrection? (Acts 24:15) They certainly qualify
as being the "bad" ones.
So, what does the Bible say? Are those excessively wicked people going
-- International English
Acts 24:15 I have the same belief in God that these Jews have--the
hope that all people, good and bad, will be raised from death.
Continuing on, then it has been taught to me from Catholicism, that
right after that 2nd resurrection, the wicked go to hellfire, and the
good to Heaven. BLEEP!!! The Bible doesn't teach that. If you want to
teach that, by all means, but it is a human fantasy. Why?
Lies from Watchtower/Satan.
You got that messed up. It's TRUTHS from the Watchtower, lies from
Satan.
The NWT manufactured by Watchtower is a
false translation and abomination:

<***@christrose.news>

https://christrose.news/NWT-Abomination

And I would note, here, that we've
already been through this before. You
simply wait for a week or two, then come
back as if we've never had the
discussion, and present the same refuted
arguments over and over, as if they
haven't already been addressed.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Satan has pulled off a good one with his hellfire doctrine. He
actually got millions to believe him. (I was one of those also when in
Catholicism) Back then they didn't go so much with the Bible, as with
church doctrine. Anyway, since then all of my religious beliefs come
from the Bible.
It's Satan who wants people to feel
comfortable rejecting Christ as Savior,
who promotes the annihilation deceit.
Only a fool would gamble his eternal
destiny on the idea he'll have another
chance to accept Christ after he's
experienced death, which is a lie taught
nowhere in the Bible.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
The apostle Paul was given this Bible knowledge. Carefully notice what
The maximum price for sin; death. Ro 6:7,23,
"7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 23 For the
wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ
Jesus our Lord." (NIV)
1) The context shows that it is not an
individual's death which frees him from
the penalty of sin, but a believer's
baptism into Christ's death to sin,
“Or do you not know that as many of us
as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into His death? Therefore we
were buried with Him through baptism
into death, that just as Christ was
raised from the dead by the glory of the
Father, even so we also should walk in
newness of life.” (Romans 6:3–4, NKJV)
A) This is not even talking about being
saved from the penalty of eternal
damnation (although that is also only
through faith in Christ's death for our
sins, not through our death). It's
talking about how the believer in Christ
can be free from the power of sin in His
daily life.
B) This death payment Christ made, only
benefits "as many of us as were baptized
into Christ Jesus". It is not a benefit
which is applied to any unbeliever. If
you rely on Christ's death as the
atonement for your sin, and believe in
your heart God raised Him from the dead
(Romans 10:9-10), you are free from the
penalty of eternal damnation, and from
the obligation to sin. If you're not,
then you're not.
C) No person's death, other than
Christ's, has the ability to atone for
sin, or release the person from the
penalty or power of sin. This benefit is
received only through faith in Christ.
-- New King James
Romans 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Again you remove the context to promote
soul-damning deceit, while ignoring both
what the Bible actually says and what I
wrote about it:

“We know that our old self was crucified
with him in order that the body of sin
might be brought to nothing, so that we
would no longer be enslaved to sin. For
one who has died has been set free from
sin.” (Romans 6:6–7, ESV)

It is only the believer who has been
baptized into Christ's death to sin and
only the believer in Christ who has been
raised with Him to newness of life. It
doesn't mean anyone who dies has been
freed from sin. It means those who were
baptized into Christ's death and
resurrection through faith, are no
longer obligate to sin. You promote
soul-damning confusion, by ignoring and
removing the context, then twisting your
carefully selected snippets of text.
Post by z***@windstream.net
-- New King James
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes, keep Paul away from the wine. (:>)
idem.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
2) Watchtower/Satan does not use the
safeguard of clear reference when
twisting the Scriptures.
The principle of clear reference is that
when doctrine is clearly established in
a large body of Scripture (such as that
only Christ's death can atone for our
sins), you don't then seek out a verse
which on the surface, seems conducive to
promoting a contrary understanding.
You forget. Those who are resurrected (like the millions who lived
before Christ) still have to accept Christ, or they will not be saved.
So yes, Jesus' death paved the way for salvation.
Lies. Show a single verse in the Bible
which says any such thing. The Bible
says it's appointed unto men once to
die, and after this the judgment
(Hebrews 9:27)

“And as it is appointed for men to die
once, but after this the judgment,”
(Hebrews 9:27, NKJV)

Nothing at the Great White Throne
judgment indicates anyone is being given
an opportunity to accept Christ as Savior:

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. And I saw the
dead, small and great, standing before
God, and books were opened. And another
book was opened, which is the Book of
Life. And the dead were judged according
to their works, by the things which were
written in the books. The sea gave up
the dead who were in it, and Death and
Hades delivered up the dead who were in
them. And they were judged, each one
according to his works. Then Death and
Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. And anyone not
found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation
20:11–15, NKJV)
Post by z***@windstream.net
Also, the leader of the JW organization is the Lord Jesus. Through
deep prayer and research of the Bible, they get their Bible facts.
Lies. You operate under submission to
lies based on a changing, abomination of
a NWT translation, and in submission to
the self-proclaimed "faithful slave"
Watchtower organization.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
contradicts the clear abundance of
revelation on the subject.
Then what you are suggesting is to NOT research the Bible to find a
Scripture to support a doctrine. One of which you say we 'twist'.
You twist my statements just like you
try to twist Scripture. The abundant,
clear teaching of the Bible should guide
our interpretation. That's why you
always have to go to the less
progressive revelation of the Old
Testament to try to establish doctrines
based on claims like that because
someone "died", they ceased to exist.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Well the Bible doesn't agree with you. See how I 'twist' the following
"10. Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night
to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that
they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures
daily to find out whether these things were so." (NKJV)
Please untwist that Scripture so that we can see what it really says.
(:>(
You're not citing that Scripture in your
effort to establish the doctrine of
annihilation. You cite it only when you
pretend to agree with the principle of
clear reference. Then you throw it out
the window to promote doctrines which
are taught nowhere in the Bible, as you
effectively seek to make people feel
comfortable rejecting Christ as Savior.
And it's not the Bible you search, it's
Watchtower doctrine you are trying to
conform to. They are the "faithful
slave" that you are obligated to submit
to, when it comes to understanding what
the Bible means.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
For a full demonstration of how the
Watchtower's NWT Bible is an
Here we go again. It's either a zillion years ago (which has nothing
to do with today) or downright lies.
There's nothing in the article about
anything that happened a "zillion years
ago".

https://christrose.news/NWT-Abomination
Post by z***@windstream.net
Many people use the changes made in the Organization since the
beginning to downgrade it. Believe it or not, the true religion keeps
Translation: "Upgrading" means changing
what the Bible says, until it agrees
with what Watchtower wants it to mean.
Post by z***@windstream.net
-- New King James
Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is like the shining sun, that
shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.
You see. That's where we are different from the churches. If we find a
doctrine that is unclear etc, we upgrade to the latest info on it.
Where the churches stay stagnated in their false doctrines (like
hellfire-- God is not a sadist). A good hellfire sermon can make them
reach deep into their pockets.
You are not addressing any of the points
made in the article.

https://christrose.news/NWT-Abomination
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Or, see here, if you cannot retrieve
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=172589937000
OK, I looked it up. There is what is claimed to be Bible scholars
saying the NWT is a piece of junk. I also have Bible scholars saying
it was a great piece of work. Even if the NWT translators only had a
Kindergarten diploma, they would NEVER have received such beneficial
claims from other Bible scholars.
First, you need to scold most ALL Bible translations for removing God'
name from their Bible. In the OT, it is found around 7000 times in the
form of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton! Some Bible translations show it
(Psalm 83:18) May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You
alone are the Most High over all the earth. (NWT)
"Jehovah" hardly looks like "YHWH" to
me. The OT text says "YHWH"
(transliterated), not "Jehovah".

The form "Jehovah" developed in the
medieval period through the combination
of the YHWH consonants with the vowels
of Adonai. This form was solidified in
later English Bible translations,
especially the King James Version
(1611), which used "Jehovah" in a few
select places (e.g., Exodus 6:3, Psalm
83:18).

The main weakness of "Jehovah" is that
it is not historically or linguistically
accurate. It is a hybrid word created by
inserting the wrong vowels into YHWH,
and its continued use perpetuates an
error in understanding how God’s name
was intended to be spoken.
Post by z***@windstream.net
-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Psalms 83:18 Let them know that you alone,
whose name is the Lord,
are the Most High over all the earth.
"Lord" is a title NOT a name. So get your tongue lashing ready to
criticize MOST modern Bible translations who have cut out God's name
in their Bibles.
idem. We know what the original
languages say, and it is YHWH, not
"Jehovah".
Post by z***@windstream.net
Also notice how they make God a LIAR!! God said His NAME is "Lord".
- King James
Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not
give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
(Isaiah 42:8) I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one
else, Nor my praise to graven images. (NWT)
I could do this over 6,900 times. But you would probably ignore it.
Out of sight, out of mind. Right?
Idem. You'd just show me 6,000 times
where the NWT incorrectly got "Jehovah"
out of YHWH.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Now back to the NWT.
For just one example of praises for the NWT, by a renowned translator
“I am interested in the mission work of your people, and its world
wide scope, and much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous
translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I
can testify.”—Letter, December 8, 1950, from Edgar J. Goodspeed,
translator of the Greek “New Testament” in An American Translation."
(g87.3/22, p.14)
"Edgar Johnson Goodspeed (1871–1962) was an American theologian and
scholar of Greek and the New Testament. He taught for many years at
the University of Chicago, whose collection of New Testament
manuscripts he enriched by his searches. The University's collection
is now named in his honor.
He is widely remembered for his translations of the Bible: The New
Testament: an American Translation (1923), and (with John Merlin Powis
Smith) "The Bible, An American Translation" (1935), the "Goodspeed
Bible". He is also remembered for his translation of the Apocrypha,
and that translation was included in The Complete Bible, An American
Translation (1939). Finally, Harper & Brothers issued his widely
heralded The Apostolic Fathers: An American Translation (1950).
Edgar J. Goodspeed was born in Quincy, Illinois. He graduated from
Denison University in 1890 (where he also received a doctorate in
Divinity, 1928) and the University of Chicago (Ph.D. 1898)."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_J._Goodspeed)
So how could a renowned Bible scholar say such good things about the
NWT? Did he also only have a Kindergarten diploma too?
Unfortunately for the NWT, he was not
one of the translators, none of whom was
found to have a working knowledge of how
to accurately translate the original
languages, when tested.

https://christrose.news/NWT-Abomination
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
Thus when all those people before Christ's time and during, are
resurrected, they will not be judged on their past lives because they
are 'sinless' by being "freed" from sin. Rather they will be judged on
how they conduct themselves FROM THEN ON.
Lies. See above. Only Christ's death can
provide an atonement for sin, or free
anyone from the penalty of eternal
damnation, or from the power of sin in
daily living.
Then you are calling Paul a liar at Rom 6:7,23? You are free to do so.
But JW's go by the Bible even when they are mocked and even persecuted
for doing so.
Idem. Addressed above. The context shows
it's not talking at all about every
person's death paying for his sins. It's
talking about the believer being
baptized into Christ's death to sin and
resurrection to newness of life. It's
Christ's death which frees us from sin,
and we are only baptized into His death
through faith in His atonement for our sins.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
And of course they must
accept Jesus at that time in order to get eternal life. (Joh 14:6)
More lies. There will be no opportunity
for anyone who has been raised from the
dead as an unbeliever, to then trust in
What about all the Pagan inhabitants that lived and died eons ago. If
you were one of them, would you say you would never accept Christ? If
so, let's hope the others do better. Sorry, but thank God you are not
in charge of the resurrection.
Romans 1 shows pagans are without excuse
because they rejected the knowledge of
God that's evident in creation. Now,
show one verse of Scripture which
supports the idea that people get a
chance to accept Christ after they die.
You're not citing any authoritative
Scripture here. You're simply making
hypothetical emotional appeals.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
1) You have till you died to trust in
Christ as Savior.
I always have since becoming a JW. Do you attend the memorial of
You do not believe in the Christ of the
Bible, and you are not a "Jehovah's
Witness". You believe in a false Christ
who was not God. Christ is the YHWH ("I
AM") God of the Old Testament (see John
8). The real Christ said, "Before
Abraham was, "I am". The Jews
immediately picked up stones to kill
Him, because they understood He was
claiming to be God.
Post by z***@windstream.net
-- New King James
Luke 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it
to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in
remembrance of Me.''
Idem.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
After that, comes the
Yes, but we don't know the time interval between the resurrections and
the judgments.
There is no stated "time interval"
between the resurrection of the unsaved
dead, and their judgment. See Revelation
20:11ff:

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. And I saw the
dead, small and great, standing before
God, and books were opened. And another
book was opened, which is the Book of
Life. And the dead were judged according
to their works, by the things which were
written in the books. The sea gave up
the dead who were in it, and Death and
Hades delivered up the dead who were in
them. And they were judged, each one
according to his works. Then Death and
Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. And anyone not
found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation
20:11–15, NKJV)
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
“And as it is appointed for men to die
once, but after this the judgment,”
(Hebrews 9:27, NKJV)
That is true. Paul is showing us the 'appointment' of death to all men
that are Adam's offspring. There is no getting out of it. There is no
reincarnation where a person keeps getting born and dying over and
over again.
Idem. It isn't just "death". It's that
after death comes "the judgment". Not,
after death comes "the second
opportunity to trust Christ. There's no
verse of Scripture which indicates
anyone gets a second chance to trust
Christ after they die.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
2) As we see from the judgment, there's
no one there being given the opportunity
to trust in Christ for salvation. They
Again, it doesn't give the time interval.
idem.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
“Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. And I saw the
dead, small and great, standing before
God, and books were opened. And another
book was opened, which is the Book of
Life. And the dead were judged according
to their works, by the things which were
written in the books. The sea gave up
the dead who were in it, and Death and
Hades delivered up the dead who were in
them. And they were judged, each one
according to his works. Then Death and
Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. And anyone not
found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation
20:11–15, NKJV)
So, you are saying Paul lied,
I cite a passage of Scripture, verbatim,
and you immediately accuse me of
claiming Paul lied? Are you saying Paul
contradicted this passage? How so?
Post by z***@windstream.net
and even though they died, they are
resurrected with their sins. You just condemned most all those before
Christ with a negative judgment.
Again, you are evidently operating under
the twisted assumption that Romans 6-7
speaks about any death of any person.
It's clearly talking about those who,
through faith and baptism into Christ's
death, have died with Him to sin, and
risen with him to newness of life. It's
not saying their death paid for their
sins. It's saying they become free from
the power of sin in their daily life
when, through faith and baptism into
Christ's death to sin, they died with
Him to sin. You ignore the context and
twist snippets. This in no way indicates
they pay for their own sins, simply by
them dying. Only believers have died
with Christ to sin and risen with Him to
newness of life, and it wasn't their
death that paid for the sin. It was
Christ's.
Post by z***@windstream.net
For example, you can kiss off all the ancient Egyptians. They
worshipped false gods and never got to hear from Jesus. DOES THAT
SOUND FAIR TO YOU? They were just born at the wrong time. Is that
their fault?
Go study Romans 1 and come back when you
have a clue what the Bible teaches.
Pagans are justly condemned because they
rejected the knowledge of God that's
evident in creation, and suppressed it
with evil deeds. They didn't want to
retain the knowledge of God, so God
handed them over to their own corrupt
way of thinking.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Of course, I shouldn't be surprised. Christendom's god is a sadistic
monster eternally frying His bad children. Thank God I got away from
that thing. It is like a beautiful lamb which is unzipping its coating
and you can see the Devil inside. Eternal suffering is a DEMON
More twisted lies from Satan.

1) Men don't come into the world
innocent and undeserving of eternal
damnation. They come into the world
spiritually dead, mentally darkened and
morally depraved (Ephesians), and at
enmity against God (Romans 8:7).

The only way God could remain just while
not sending such people to eternal
damnation, is by providing a
substitutionary atonement for their
sins, in the person of Christ. That's
what Romans 3:23ff. says:

“But now the righteousness of God has
been manifested apart from the law,
although the Law and the Prophets bear
witness to it— the righteousness of God
through faith in Jesus Christ for all
who believe. For there is no
distinction: for all have sinned and
fall short of the glory of God, and are
justified by his grace as a gift,
through the redemption that is in Christ
Jesus, whom God put forward as a
propitiation by his blood, to be
received by faith. This was to show
God’s righteousness, because in his
divine forbearance he had passed over
former sins. It was to show his
righteousness at the present time, so
that he might be just and the justifier
of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
(Romans 3:21–26, ESV)

If people reject that propitiating
atonement for their sins, there remains
no other means by which God can forgive
them and still remain just.
Post by z***@windstream.net
-- New King James
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some
will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and
doctrines of demons,
And the context you snipped shows those
people are forbidding to marry and
commanding to abstain from meats God
allows us to eat. They also promoted
myths, rather than sound doctrine from
the Bible. Thus, this is irrelevant to
the discussion.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
3) Everyone there will be cast into the
lake of fire, which includes conscious
I know, I know, I was once living in that sewer. But just think for a
second what you just said. Now what if a close relative, or even a
family member is sent to your hellfire. Could you honestly enjoy your
life knowing that every second that person is suffering beyond
comprehension?
And here you betray the fact that you're
not basing your reasoning on what the
Bible actually says, but what you want
it to mean. You're making an emotional
appeal that contradicts what the Bible
says. People who reject Christ as Savior
remove the only way a just God can
remain just while forgiving them of
their sins. Their death does _not_ pay
for their sins. Only Christ's death
does, and only those who believe in it
can justly be forgiven of their sins.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
“he himself shall also drink of the wine
of the wrath of God, which is poured out
full strength into the cup of His
indignation. He shall be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of
the holy angels and in the presence of
the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment
ascends forever and ever; and they have
no rest day or night, who worship the
beast and his image, and whoever
receives the mark of his name.””
(Revelation 14:10–11, NKJV)
“The devil, who deceived them, was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet
are. And they will be tormented day and
night forever and ever.” (Revelation
20:10, NKJV)
They have "no rest" day and night,
"forever and ever", and the smoke of
their "torment", goes up "forever and
ever". This is not referring to
annihilation or cessation of existence,
but to conscious eternal torment that
never ends.
How can you possibly call your god a god of love, when he does things
MUCH WORSE than Hitler ever did.
idem.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
So does that include Hitler and the rest? Well we know that the
betrayer Judas, will never be resurrected again, for Jesus called him
the "son of destruction". So, he was not tossed into hades, but
instead to Gehenna, which represents everlasting destruction. (Joh
17:12)
There's no need for a fire that "cannot
be quenched" to burn "forever and ever",
if one is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist after being judged at
the Great White throne. These people
have "no rest" day or night, and the
smoke of their "torment" goes up
"forever and ever". That's not cessation
of existence, but of conscious, eternal
torment.
Since Gehenna represented complete destruction, by putting out the
fire would have meant the punishment ended. And that is not what the
Bible teaches. The fire (destruction) goes on forever.
As does their "torment". I've already
shown you half a dozen times that the
word "destruction" does not necessitate
the understanding of cessation of
existence, and many times it's
translated in ways that render such an
understanding impossible, including in
the context of passages which note that
the "torment" these damned souls
experience continues "day and night",
for a span of time that lasts "forever
and ever".
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Convincing people they can reject Christ
as Savior now, then have an option to do
so later, or that even if they reject
Christ later, they will simply cease to
exist, encourages people to reject
Christ as Savior, and to risk their
eternal destiny on the false hope that
they will have another chance to accept
Christ later. The Bible says it is
appointed unto man once to die, and
after this the judgement. The judgment
includes being thrown into the Lake of
Fire "forever and ever", and to
experience "torment" day and night,
"forever and ever".
I am sorry you feel that way about OUR loving God. But soon you will
find out the real truth. I just hope it happens before it's too late.
You're operating on feelings rather than
facts then. And even at an emotional
level, telling people to gamble their
eternal destiny on the idea they'll get
a second chance to trust Christ, or that
they can just cease to exist if they
later decide to reject Him again, when
the Bible says they will suffer eternal
"torment", "day and night", "forever and
ever", is not exactly something which
comes across as compassionate and loving.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
Thus all people that are in sheol (OT=hell, NT=hades), will get out
"freed from sin". (Rom 6:7) They paid their dues for sin, by dying.
But what about the exceedingly wicked like Hitler get out?
idem.
“as also in all his epistles, speaking
in them of these things, in which are
some things hard to understand, which
untaught and unstable people twist to
their own destruction, as they do also
the rest of the Scriptures.” (2 Peter
3:16, NKJV)
Actually, since you take most things literally,
Already addressed this. The Bible (e.g.
Revelation), tells us when it's using
figurative speech. Most of this is in
the form of statements such as "like" or
"as". They use something which we know
about to compare it to something which
we have not yet seen. That's why it says
Christ's hair is white "like wool". Does
that mean he has wool for hair. No. It
means He has white hair that looks like
wool. But it also doesn't mean He's
bald, because it's using a symbol to
describe the nature of His hair.

When Revelation uses symbols that are
not a simple "like" or "as", it explains
to us what the symbolism literally
means. Thus it shows, for example, what
the meaning is of the beast and the
harlot. They correspond to world
governments and kings, and geographic
locations.

You try to obscure things you don't want
to hear by labeling it as "symbolic",
but Revelation tells the literal meaning
of the symbols.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Bible contradicting lies. Death and
Hades (hell) will be cast into the Lake
You say the lake of fire is a literal torture chamber of fire. HOW CAN
DEATH BE TORTURED BY FIRE? Please answer.
HOW CAN HELL BE TORTURED BY FIRE? Please answer.
It doesn't say death is tortured by
fire. It says death and Hades (the abode
of the dead) is cast into the lake of
fire. It's the people and angels who are
tormented, not death and Hades.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
“Then Death and Hades were cast into the
lake of fire. This is the second death.”
(Revelation 20:14, NKJV)
There you have it. The lake of fire is SYMBOLIC of the "SECOND DEATH".
The first death was Adamic death, which we all inherited. The second
DEATH is forever, with no resurrection.
It doesn't say the lake of fire is
"symbolic" of the second death. It says
going to the lake of fire "is" the
second death.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
So for the unsaved dead, it will be out
of the frying pan and into the fire, so
to speak. Even their former abode of
Hades will be thrown into the lake of
fire with them.
Yes, and don't forget, Hades will be tortured by fire forever and
ever. (as will also Death)
Idem. It doesn't say death or Hades is
tortured. It says the people who go to
the lake of fire suffer "torment", "day
and night", "forever and ever".
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
-- King James
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works.
-- New King James
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death
and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were
judged, each one according to his works.
According to Paul, also those in "hell" (sheol, hades) are emptied out
and sinless.
ibid. It mentions nothing at all about
Hades or Sheol being "sinless". Death
and Hades themselves will be cast into
the lake of fire with everyone who
rejected Christ before dying.
Oh, since the apostle Paul wrote it you ignore it?
What do you mean? You're citing
Revelation. John wrote Revelation. Where
did Paul contradict anything John wrote?
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
So there is a large time gap between them just getting
out, and when they are judged.
The Bible teaches no such thing. It
mentions the second resurrection as
occurring at the Great White Throne
judgment, at which time everyone who
never trusted Christ before they died,
and the Hades they abode in will be cast
into the lake of fire, where they will
have "no rest day or night", and will
suffer "torment" that lasts "forever and
ever".
Yes, I want to hear how "death" and "hell" are tortured. That should
be interesting. (:>)
idem. It doesn't say death and hell are
tortured now, does it? It says people
and angels go to the lake of fire and
suffer "torment" that lasts "day and
night", "forever and ever".
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
Now GEHENNA and the lake of fire are the places where there is no
resurrection.
And that's where all the unsaved dead
are said to be thrown at the Great White
Throne judgment in Revelation 20.
Post by z***@windstream.net
It is represented by fire showing permanent destruction.
The word "destruction" does not
necessitate a cessation of existence,
and the context of being in "torment"
and having no rest "day or night" for a
period defined as "forever and ever"
makes such an understanding impossible
as it regards the eternal destiny of the
lost . As has been shown repeatedly,
this word is repeatedly applied in cases
where it is impossible that it means
The Greek word translated as
"destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
is *???????* (ólethros), which is often
understood as ruin, devastation, or loss
rather than cessation of existence. This
word appears in other passages where its
meaning clearly cannot refer to
annihilation or non-existence. Here are
1 Timothy 6:9
"But those who desire to be rich fall
into temptation, into a snare, into many
senseless and harmful desires that
plunge people into ruin and destruction"
(1 Timothy 6:9, ESV).
Here, the term *???????* refers to a
moral and spiritual ruin that befalls
those who pursue wealth at the expense
of their faith. It describes a
disastrous state of life that leads to
spiritual corruption but does not imply
cessation of existence. People who fall
into this destruction continue to live,
demonstrating that *???thros* here
refers to a state of moral and spiritual
devastation rather than annihilation.
1 Corinthians 5:5
"You are to deliver this man to Satan
for the destruction of the flesh, so
that his spirit may be saved in the day
of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 5:5, ESV).
In this passage, *???????* refers to the
destruction of the flesh as a
disciplinary measure, but it does not
suggest that the individual ceases to
exist or that his body ceased to exist.
Instead, it indicates physical suffering
or the ruin of sinful behavior, with the
ultimate aim being the person's
spiritual salvation. This shows that
*?lethros* in this context cannot mean
annihilation but rather a transformative
or corrective process.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
"While people are saying, 'There is
peace and security,' then sudden
destruction will come upon them as labor
pains come upon a pregnant woman, and
they will not escape" (1 Thessalonians
5:3, ESV).
The word *???????* is used here to
describe a sudden calamity or
devastating judgment, but the analogy to
labor pains shows that it cannot mean
the cessation of existence. Labor pains
result in a significant event (the birth
of a child), not the end of life. Thus,
the destruction here refers to an
inescapable judgment, not annihilation.
2 Peter 2:1
"But false prophets also arose among the
people, just as there will be false
teachers among you, who will secretly
bring in destructive heresies, even
denying the Master who bought them,
bringing upon themselves swift
destruction" (2 Peter 2:1, ESV).
The *???????* in this verse refers to
the spiritual ruin and judgment brought
upon false teachers. They continue to
live and teach, which makes it
impossible to interpret *?lethros* as
cessation of existence. Instead, it
signifies moral and spiritual
devastation that leads to final judgment.
In these contexts, *???th???* does not
refer to the end of existence but rather
to a state of moral, spiritual, or
physical ruin, often tied to judgment or
severe consequences. This understanding
supports the interpretation in 2
Thessalonians 1:9, where "eternal
destruction" refers to a state of
perpetual ruin and separation from God's
presence, not annihilation or non-existence.
But you would have to admit that it also means no conscious life.
Cite your example, and let's look at the
context.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
Jesus showed that Judas was tossed (figuratively speaking) in there.
Gehenna is not "hell", and neither is the lake of fire hell. Gehenna
and the lake of fire refer to the same place. A place of non-existence
for ever. Tortured in the sense of never getting out of there.
The Bible says no such thing on any
point. It shows (as seen above), that
even the former abode of the unsaved
dead (Hades), will itself be flung into
the lake of fire. The bible shows these
people will experience "torment" and no
rest, "forever and ever", not that they
will cease to exist.
Your god is soooo cruel!
Emotional pap. People who reject the
loving, gracious, and merciful atonement
God has provided for their sins, have no
other atonement by which a just God can
remain just while forgiving their sins.
Post by z***@windstream.net
It is a pleasure to worship the real God of love. (1 John 4:8)
idem.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
Gehenna was the name of Jerusalem's garbage dump. People who were
familiar with it, never saw anything tossed into it, ever come back.
Thus its symbolism was perfect for describing certain Bible passages.
The symbolism is correct, because the
fire never went out. One does not need
an eternal fire to destroy something
which is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist.
As I mentioned above, an ongoing fire represents continued destruction
that will not stop.
1) There's no need to keep on destroying
forever and ever, something which no
longer exists.

2) "Destruction" does not necessitate
the understanding of cessation of
existence, and it cannot mean such a
thing in the context of passages which
plainly state that the "torment" goes on
"day and night", "forever and ever".
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
I know these Bible
[Watchtower/Satanic]
Post by z***@windstream.net
ideas are strange to many,
--As they should be. You yourself
acknowledge them as strange, because
they do not come from Scripture, but
only from a labored twisting of Scripture.
They are strange because the religious leaders of Christendom have
here at the end times, teach doctrines of demons. (1 Tim 4:1)
Post by Christ Rose
Post by z***@windstream.net
but they are all Bible
truths. (2 Tim 3:16)
No they are not, as shown above.
Post by z***@windstream.net
I know they are hard to grasp since they have
been drummed into our heads from youth. But just research them to see
that they are true.
idem.
Also, as a side note, you mention here
your teaching as if it were "Bible
truths". Then in the very next
statement, you say these ideas (your
Bible teachings assumed) are "hard to
grasp since they have been drummed into
our heads from youth".
Yes, I could have worded that better. What I was trying to say was
that the churches have drummed into our heads church doctrines (like
hellfire, Trinity, immortal soul, etc, etc) Thus to hear there is no
hellfire, and God is one not three, and a soul can physically die,
will sound strange to die-hard church goers.
Post by Christ Rose
Thus, you switch your meaning
mid-sentence. You start out by
presenting your own claims as "Bible
truths", then imply these "Bible truths"
are hard to grasp because they (your
teachings you claim are from the Bible)
have been "drummed into our heads from
youth".
If you want to rub my nose in it go ahead. I should have been more
careful.
Post by Christ Rose
Maybe your "Jehovah's
Witnesses"/Satanic/Watchtower ideas have
been drummed into your head since you
were a youth.
I wish. I was a Catholic all through my military service.
Post by Christ Rose
Thus, you unwittingly confess to the
truth, which is that it is your
heretical teachings which have been
drummed into people's heads since their
youth ("Jehovah's Witnesses"), not the
"Bible truths" which your false
teachings contradict.
Oh, do I get the last word here? OK
Have a good one.
Sincerely James.
politicians, clergy, doctors?
[snip]
Post by z***@windstream.net
for answers.
9/11/2024
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
Richard Carl Silk
2024-09-29 21:13:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
If y'all are looking to understand "Salvation" (aka "Unity") simply read up at:

Tinyurl.com/ITTA-TCoU (then reply here with your thoughts.)
Christ Rose
2024-09-29 21:38:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
========================================
On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 16:13:24 -0500
<vdcftl$1sqmp$***@dont-email.me>
"Richard Carl Silk"
<***@Juno.Com> wrote:
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
Tinyurl.com/ITTA-TCoU (then reply here with your thoughts.)
How about you summarize your views here,
or just post it in plain text?
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
Richard Carl Silk
2024-10-05 16:37:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 16:13:24 -0500
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
Tinyurl.com/ITTA-TCoU (then reply here with your thoughts.)
How about you summarize your views here, or just post it in plain text?
"How about you" *read it* and "post" "your views here," "in plain text?"

The act of [summarizing] loses the personal understanding gained that is
obtained from reading.
Christ Rose
2024-10-05 17:39:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
========================================
On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 11:37:16 -0500
<vdrpvu$qqgi$***@dont-email.me>
"Richard Carl Silk"
<***@Juno.Com> wrote:
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 16:13:24 -0500
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
Tinyurl.com/ITTA-TCoU (then reply here with your thoughts.)
How about you summarize your views here, or just post it in plain text?
"How about you" *read it* and "post" "your views here," "in plain text?"
The act of [summarizing] loses the personal understanding gained that is
obtained from reading.
If you want me to read and review it,
post it here in plain text. Why would
you be opposed to that?
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
Richard Carl Silk
2024-10-09 19:03:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 11:37:16 -0500
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 16:13:24 -0500
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
If y'all are looking to understand "Salvation" (aka "Unity") simply read up
at: Tinyurl.com/ITTA-TCoU (then reply here with your thoughts.)
How about you summarize your views here, or just post it in plain text?
"How about you" *read it* and "post" "your views here," "in plain text?"
The act of [summarizing] loses the personal understanding gained that is
obtained from reading.
If you want me to read and review it, post it here in plain text. Why would
you be opposed to that?
1) All "want" (as in [A wants B]) *reflects* duality. *Only* Love (as in A?B)
Reveals Unity.
1b) All "opposition" (as in [A opposes B]) *reflects* duality. *Only* Love (as
in A?B) Reveals Unity.
1c) See also: TinyURL.com/ITTA-topic-UD
2) As it's a TinyURL link, the link keeps a link count (remember those?) of the
number of visitors to the link.
3) As already explained, "The act of [summarizing] loses the personal
understanding gained that is obtained from reading."
In that vein, the lack of interest in looking for oneself indicates no interest
in the message, so why waste bandwidth appeasing the uninterested?
3b) The story is in a Google Docs format, with hyper-linked
words/terms/references for supporting documentation. This newsgroup lacks such
hyperlink ability, and spelling out the links would impede the reading
experience.
4) If one *has* interest, *and reads* the (short) story, and *likes* the story,
one may then *easily* share the link with others.
Richard Carl Silk
2024-10-09 19:05:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"Richard Carl Silk" <***@Juno.Com> wrote in message news:ve6k28$2omcl$***@dont-email.me...
<snip>
Post by Richard Carl Silk
1) All "want" (as in [A wants B]) *reflects* duality. *Only* Love (as in A?B)
Reveals Unity.
1b) All "opposition" (as in [A opposes B]) *reflects* duality. *Only* Love
(as in A?B) Reveals Unity.
1c) See also: TinyURL.com/ITTA-topic-UD
This newsgroup seems to have trouble even transmitting a simple ASCII 003 code
(it displays a ? symbol rather than a heart.)
Christ Rose
2024-10-09 22:27:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 10/9/2024 2:05 PM, Richard Carl Silk
Post by Richard Carl Silk
<snip>
Post by Richard Carl Silk
1) All "want" (as in [A wants B]) *reflects* duality. *Only* Love (as in A?B)
Reveals Unity.
1b) All "opposition" (as in [A opposes B]) *reflects* duality. *Only* Love
(as in A?B) Reveals Unity.
1c) See also: TinyURL.com/ITTA-topic-UD
This newsgroup seems to have trouble even transmitting a simple ASCII 003 code
(it displays a ? symbol rather than a heart.)
Some of it may have to do with how you
format your text and send it. UTF-8 is a
little more forgiving on symbols. I use
Thunderbird, and the characters usually
show up fine.

You're using Outlook Express, which is
an amazing feat in itself, considering I
can't even get it to run on my computer.
You must be running an old system.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
z***@windstream.net
2024-10-02 22:06:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Sep 2024 12:07:19 -0500, Christ Rose
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Mon, 09 Sep 2024 11:00:56 -0400
========================================
Post by z***@windstream.net
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 08:35:37 -0000 (UTC), Total Victory of Christ
Post by Total Victory of Christ (unofficial)
AI Argument for Universal Salvation REVISITED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=97B_BfOo_a8
This is the extended argument for Universal Salvation presented in this video, originally
based on, and resulting from, my debate with AInn1. God is all-loving and desires all people
to be...
Yes, Hitler and others like him over the centuries, deserve to be
forgiven. Or do they? Wouldn't it be nice to have Hitler walking
around again? Esp in the Jewish area. Or Saddam Hussein, or Mussolini,
etc, etc.
There is going to be a resurrection of both the bad and the good. Will
such ones be in that resurrection? (Acts 24:15) They certainly qualify
as being the "bad" ones.
So, what does the Bible say? Are those excessively wicked people going
-- International English
Acts 24:15 I have the same belief in God that these Jews have--the
hope that all people, good and bad, will be raised from death.
Continuing on, then it has been taught to me from Catholicism, that
right after that 2nd resurrection, the wicked go to hellfire, and the
good to Heaven. BLEEP!!! The Bible doesn't teach that. If you want to
teach that, by all means, but it is a human fantasy. Why?
Lies from Watchtower/Satan.
Post by z***@windstream.net
The apostle Paul was given this Bible knowledge. Carefully notice what
The maximum price for sin; death. Ro 6:7,23,
"7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 23 For the
wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ
Jesus our Lord." (NIV)
1) The context shows that it is not an
individual's death which frees him from
the penalty of sin, but a believer's
baptism into Christ's death to sin,
“Or do you not know that as many of us
as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into His death? Therefore we
were buried with Him through baptism
into death, that just as Christ was
raised from the dead by the glory of the
Father, even so we also should walk in
newness of life.” (Romans 6:3–4, NKJV)
A) This is not even talking about being
saved from the penalty of eternal
damnation (although that is also only
through faith in Christ's death for our
sins, not through our death). It's
talking about how the believer in Christ
can be free from the power of sin in His
daily life.
B) This death payment Christ made, only
benefits "as many of us as were baptized
into Christ Jesus". It is not a benefit
which is applied to any unbeliever. If
you rely on Christ's death as the
atonement for your sin, and believe in
your heart God raised Him from the dead
(Romans 10:9-10), you are free from the
penalty of eternal damnation, and from
the obligation to sin. If you're not,
then you're not.
C) No person's death, other than
Christ's, has the ability to atone for
sin, or release the person from the
penalty or power of sin. This benefit is
received only through faith in Christ.
2) Watchtower/Satan does not use the
safeguard of clear reference when
twisting the Scriptures.
The principle of clear reference is that
when doctrine is clearly established in
a large body of Scripture (such as that
only Christ's death can atone for our
sins), you don't then seek out a verse
which on the surface, seems conducive to
promoting a contrary understanding.
That's all Watchtower does. They either
modify their own NWT translation to
promote contradictory teachings, or they
go to the less clear revelation of the
Old Testament, or they find some verse
of Scripture which appears to confirm
what they say on the surface, then they
twist it to say something that
contradicts the clear abundance of
revelation on the subject.
For a full demonstration of how the
Watchtower's NWT Bible is an
Or, see here, if you cannot retrieve
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=172589937000
Post by z***@windstream.net
Thus when all those people before Christ's time and during, are
resurrected, they will not be judged on their past lives because they
are 'sinless' by being "freed" from sin. Rather they will be judged on
how they conduct themselves FROM THEN ON.
Lies. See above. Only Christ's death can
provide an atonement for sin, or free
anyone from the penalty of eternal
damnation, or from the power of sin in
daily living.
Post by z***@windstream.net
And of course they must
accept Jesus at that time in order to get eternal life. (Joh 14:6)
More lies. There will be no opportunity
for anyone who has been raised from the
dead as an unbeliever, to then trust in
1) You have till you died to trust in
Christ as Savior. After that, comes the
“And as it is appointed for men to die
once, but after this the judgment,”
(Hebrews 9:27, NKJV)
2) As we see from the judgment, there's
no one there being given the opportunity
to trust in Christ for salvation. They
“Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. And I saw the
dead, small and great, standing before
God, and books were opened. And another
book was opened, which is the Book of
Life. And the dead were judged according
to their works, by the things which were
written in the books. The sea gave up
the dead who were in it, and Death and
Hades delivered up the dead who were in
them. And they were judged, each one
according to his works. Then Death and
Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. And anyone not
found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation
20:11–15, NKJV)
3) Everyone there will be cast into the
lake of fire, which includes conscious
“he himself shall also drink of the wine
of the wrath of God, which is poured out
full strength into the cup of His
indignation. He shall be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of
the holy angels and in the presence of
the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment
ascends forever and ever; and they have
no rest day or night, who worship the
beast and his image, and whoever
receives the mark of his name.””
(Revelation 14:10–11, NKJV)
“The devil, who deceived them, was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet
are. And they will be tormented day and
night forever and ever.” (Revelation
20:10, NKJV)
They have "no rest" day and night,
"forever and ever", and the smoke of
their "torment", goes up "forever and
ever". This is not referring to
annihilation or cessation of existence,
but to conscious eternal torment that
never ends.
Post by z***@windstream.net
So does that include Hitler and the rest? Well we know that the
betrayer Judas, will never be resurrected again, for Jesus called him
the "son of destruction". So, he was not tossed into hades, but
instead to Gehenna, which represents everlasting destruction. (Joh
17:12)
There's no need for a fire that "cannot
be quenched" to burn "forever and ever",
if one is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist after being judged at
the Great White throne. These people
have "no rest" day or night, and the
smoke of their "torment" goes up
"forever and ever". That's not cessation
of existence, but of conscious, eternal
torment.
Convincing people they can reject Christ
as Savior now, then have an option to do
so later, or that even if they reject
Christ later, they will simply cease to
exist, encourages people to reject
Christ as Savior, and to risk their
eternal destiny on the false hope that
they will have another chance to accept
Christ later. The Bible says it is
appointed unto man once to die, and
after this the judgement. The judgment
includes being thrown into the Lake of
Fire "forever and ever", and to
experience "torment" day and night,
"forever and ever".
Post by z***@windstream.net
Thus all people that are in sheol (OT=hell, NT=hades), will get out
"freed from sin". (Rom 6:7) They paid their dues for sin, by dying.
But what about the exceedingly wicked like Hitler get out?
idem.
“as also in all his epistles, speaking
in them of these things, in which are
some things hard to understand, which
untaught and unstable people twist to
their own destruction, as they do also
the rest of the Scriptures.” (2 Peter
3:16, NKJV)
Bible contradicting lies. Death and
Hades (hell) will be cast into the Lake
“Then Death and Hades were cast into the
lake of fire. This is the second death.”
(Revelation 20:14, NKJV)
So for the unsaved dead, it will be out
of the frying pan and into the fire, so
to speak. Even their former abode of
Hades will be thrown into the lake of
fire with them.
Post by z***@windstream.net
-- King James
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works.
-- New King James
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death
and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were
judged, each one according to his works.
According to Paul, also those in "hell" (sheol, hades) are emptied out
and sinless.
ibid. It mentions nothing at all about
Hades or Sheol being "sinless". Death
and Hades themselves will be cast into
the lake of fire with everyone who
rejected Christ before dying.
Post by z***@windstream.net
So there is a large time gap between them just getting
out, and when they are judged.
The Bible teaches no such thing. It
mentions the second resurrection as
occurring at the Great White Throne
judgment, at which time everyone who
never trusted Christ before they died,
and the Hades they abode in will be cast
into the lake of fire, where they will
have "no rest day or night", and will
suffer "torment" that lasts "forever and
ever".
Post by z***@windstream.net
Now GEHENNA and the lake of fire are the places where there is no
resurrection.
And that's where all the unsaved dead
are said to be thrown at the Great White
Throne judgment in Revelation 20.
Post by z***@windstream.net
It is represented by fire showing permanent destruction.
The word "destruction" does not
necessitate a cessation of existence,
and the context of being in "torment"
and having no rest "day or night" for a
period defined as "forever and ever"
makes such an understanding impossible
as it regards the eternal destiny of the
lost . As has been shown repeatedly,
this word is repeatedly applied in cases
where it is impossible that it means
The Greek word translated as
"destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
is *???????* (ólethros), which is often
understood as ruin, devastation, or loss
rather than cessation of existence. This
word appears in other passages where its
meaning clearly cannot refer to
annihilation or non-existence. Here are
1 Timothy 6:9
"But those who desire to be rich fall
into temptation, into a snare, into many
senseless and harmful desires that
plunge people into ruin and destruction"
(1 Timothy 6:9, ESV).
Here, the term *???????* refers to a
moral and spiritual ruin that befalls
those who pursue wealth at the expense
of their faith. It describes a
disastrous state of life that leads to
spiritual corruption but does not imply
cessation of existence. People who fall
into this destruction continue to live,
demonstrating that *???thros* here
refers to a state of moral and spiritual
devastation rather than annihilation.
1 Corinthians 5:5
"You are to deliver this man to Satan
for the destruction of the flesh, so
that his spirit may be saved in the day
of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 5:5, ESV).
In this passage, *???????* refers to the
destruction of the flesh as a
disciplinary measure, but it does not
suggest that the individual ceases to
exist or that his body ceased to exist.
Instead, it indicates physical suffering
or the ruin of sinful behavior, with the
ultimate aim being the person's
spiritual salvation. This shows that
*?lethros* in this context cannot mean
annihilation but rather a transformative
or corrective process.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
"While people are saying, 'There is
peace and security,' then sudden
destruction will come upon them as labor
pains come upon a pregnant woman, and
they will not escape" (1 Thessalonians
5:3, ESV).
The word *???????* is used here to
describe a sudden calamity or
devastating judgment, but the analogy to
labor pains shows that it cannot mean
the cessation of existence. Labor pains
result in a significant event (the birth
of a child), not the end of life. Thus,
the destruction here refers to an
inescapable judgment, not annihilation.
2 Peter 2:1
"But false prophets also arose among the
people, just as there will be false
teachers among you, who will secretly
bring in destructive heresies, even
denying the Master who bought them,
bringing upon themselves swift
destruction" (2 Peter 2:1, ESV).
The *???????* in this verse refers to
the spiritual ruin and judgment brought
upon false teachers. They continue to
live and teach, which makes it
impossible to interpret *?lethros* as
cessation of existence. Instead, it
signifies moral and spiritual
devastation that leads to final judgment.
In these contexts, *???th???* does not
refer to the end of existence but rather
to a state of moral, spiritual, or
physical ruin, often tied to judgment or
severe consequences. This understanding
supports the interpretation in 2
Thessalonians 1:9, where "eternal
destruction" refers to a state of
perpetual ruin and separation from God's
presence, not annihilation or non-existence.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Jesus showed that Judas was tossed (figuratively speaking) in there.
Gehenna is not "hell", and neither is the lake of fire hell. Gehenna
and the lake of fire refer to the same place. A place of non-existence
for ever. Tortured in the sense of never getting out of there.
The Bible says no such thing on any
point. It shows (as seen above), that
even the former abode of the unsaved
dead (Hades), will itself be flung into
the lake of fire. The bible shows these
people will experience "torment" and no
rest, "forever and ever", not that they
will cease to exist.
Post by z***@windstream.net
Gehenna was the name of Jerusalem's garbage dump. People who were
familiar with it, never saw anything tossed into it, ever come back.
Thus its symbolism was perfect for describing certain Bible passages.
The symbolism is correct, because the
fire never went out. One does not need
an eternal fire to destroy something
which is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist.
Post by z***@windstream.net
I know these Bible
[Watchtower/Satanic]
Post by z***@windstream.net
ideas are strange to many,
--As they should be. You yourself
acknowledge them as strange, because
they do not come from Scripture, but
only from a labored twisting of Scripture.
Post by z***@windstream.net
but they are all Bible
truths. (2 Tim 3:16)
No they are not, as shown above.
Post by z***@windstream.net
I know they are hard to grasp since they have
been drummed into our heads from youth. But just research them to see
that they are true.
idem.
Also, as a side note, you mention here
your teaching as if it were "Bible
truths". Then in the very next
statement, you say these ideas (your
Bible teachings assumed) are "hard to
grasp since they have been drummed into
our heads from youth".
Thus, you switch your meaning
mid-sentence. You start out by
presenting your own claims as "Bible
truths", then imply these "Bible truths"
are hard to grasp because they (your
teachings you claim are from the Bible)
have been "drummed into our heads from
youth".
Maybe your "Jehovah's
Witnesses"/Satanic/Watchtower ideas have
been drummed into your head since you
were a youth.
Thus, you unwittingly confess to the
truth, which is that it is your
heretical teachings which have been
drummed into people's heads since their
youth ("Jehovah's Witnesses"), not the
"Bible truths" which your false
teachings contradict.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Richard Carl Silk
2024-10-05 17:05:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by z***@windstream.net
On Mon, 9 Sep 2024 12:07:19 -0500, Christ Rose
<snip>
Post by z***@windstream.net
Post by z***@windstream.net
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 08:35:37 -0000 (UTC), Total Victory of Christ
<snip>

There appears to be a load of banter regarding perspectives [X, Y, and/or Z].
The central "point of fallacy" that was detected involved arguments *for* "the
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania".

2 Peter 1:20 records- Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of
Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. 21 For
prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human,
spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Clearly, this disabuses "the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of
Pennsylvania" of any notion that their founder's private interpretation of the
Bible, the NWT, has *any* validity whatsoever (IE: the NWT "speaks falsely." Cf:
Johannes Gerber)

Christ Rose
2024-10-05 19:24:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
========================================
On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 12:05:28 -0500
<vdrrkp$r2r6$***@dont-email.me>
"Richard Carl Silk"
<***@Juno.Com> wrote:
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
Clearly, this disabuses "the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of
Pennsylvania" of any notion that their founder's private interpretation of the
Johannes Gerber) http://youtu.be/tfW4pr8H-8U
The Watchtower Bible (New World
Translation) is an abominable assault
against the Bible. It was translated by
those who were incompetent to deal with
the original languages, has changed
significantly in it's theology over the
years, has altered key Bible verses to
conform them to Watchtower theology,
lies about it's use of brackets (then
evidently removed them in their online
version at jw.org), etc. James, your
"Bible" is clearly an assault on the
real Bible.

1) Real language scholars roundly
condemn the NWT.

As Rhodes notes:

Dr. Julius Mantey, who penned A Manual
Grammar of the Greek New Testament,
labeled the New World Translation as “a
shocking mistranslation.” (Mantey 30)

• Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, the late New
Testament professor at Princeton
University, described the New World
Translation as “a frightful
mistranslation,” calling it “erroneous,”
“pernicious,” and “reprehensible.”
(Bruce Metzger, Theology)

• Dr. William Barclay pointed out that
“the deliberate distortion of truth by
this sect is evident in their New
Testament translation… It’s glaringly
obvious that a group that translates the
New Testament in such a way is
intellectually dishonest.” (Barclay 1953)

• Dr. Robert Countess, who authored a
doctoral dissertation on the Greek text
of the New World Translation, found that
the translation “has failed
significantly in preventing doctrinal
biases from influencing the translation…
It must be seen as an extremely biased
work. At some points, it’s outright
dishonest; at others, it’s neither
modern nor scholarly.” (Countess, 91)

• British scholar Dr. H.H. Rowley
criticized the translation, stating,
“From beginning to end, this volume
stands as a prime example of how not to
translate the Bible.” (ibid.) Rowley
also referred to this translation as “an
insult to the Word of God.”
(ibid.)(Rhodes 24-27)

2) The NWT was translated by incompetent
and biased JW's.

Again, Rhodes observes:

The translators of the New World
Translation were not experts in biblical
languages. The Watchtower has been
notably resistant to disclosing the
identities of the translation committee
members. The official stance was that
the translators wished to remain
anonymous and humble, attributing all
glory to God. However, such anonymity
also blocks verification of their
credentials.

When former high-ranking member Raymond
Franz disclosed the identities of the
translators in his book Crisis of
Conscience—Nathan Knorr, Frederick
Franz, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas,
and Milton Henschel—it became clear that
the committee was ill-equipped for the
task (Franz, p. 50, note 15).

Out of the five committee members, four
had no training in Hebrew or Greek and
merely possessed high school diplomas.
The fifth, Frederick Franz, claimed
proficiency in Hebrew and Greek. Yet,
when tested under oath in an Edinburgh
courtroom, he failed a basic Hebrew test
(Martin 124). Franz had left the
University of Cincinnati after his
sophomore year, having not pursued any
theological studies even then (Rhodes 25).

3) The NWT has changed significantly in
it's theology, over the years:

One notable shift pertains to the
Watchtower Society's stance on
worshipping Jesus. Initially, the
Watchtower Society supported the worship
of Jesus. For instance, an early edition
of The Watchtower magazine from 1880
stated, “to worship Christ in any form
cannot be wrong (The Watchtower 1880).”
A few years later, a 1898 issue
asserted, “Yes, we believe our Lord
Jesus while on earth was really
worshipped, and properly so. While he
was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God
(ibid. 1898).”

However, the narrative took a turn in
1959 when The Watchtower magazine
cautioned, “Do not erroneously conclude
that Christians are to worship Christ;
that is not what he taught (ibid.
1959).” By 1964, the magazine declared
unequivocally that “it is unscriptural
for worshipers of the living and true
God to render worship to the Son of God,
Jesus Christ (ibid. 1964).”

This doctrinal evolution is mirrored in
the translations of the New World
Translation. For example, the 1961
edition of this Bible translated Hebrews
1:6 as, “But when he again brings his
Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he
says: ‘And let all God’s angels worship
him’ ” (emphasis added). In stark
contrast, the 1971 edition changed the
wording to, “But when he again brings
his Firstborn into the inhabited earth,
he says: ‘And let all God’s angels do
obeisance to him’ ” (emphasis added,
Rhodes 24-27).

4) The New World Translation has been
altered to align with Watchtower beliefs:

To demonstrate, let's examine how the
Watchtower Society translates Colossians
1:16,17.

Colossians 1:16,17:

For by him all things were created:
things in heaven and on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or powers
or rulers or authorities; all things
were created by him and for him. He is
before all things, and in him all things
hold together (NIV).

The Jehovah's Witnesses' version of this
verse suggests that Christ was the first
creation of the Father, who then used
Christ to create everything else in the
universe. The New World Translation
states, "By means of him all other
things were created in the heavens and
upon the earth, the things visible and
the things invisible, no matter whether
they are thrones or lordships or
governments or authorities. All other
things have been created through him and
for him. Also, he is before all other
things and by means of him all other
things were made to exist" (jw.org) (The
NWT shows brackets here)(Watchtower
Bible and Tract Society 409).

Note, here, that although Rhodes shows
them still using brackets for the word
"other", the NWT online at jw.org has
evidently removed them. So now they
appear to be pretending that these words
they have inserted are actually in the
original languages.

The insertion of the word "other" four
times into Colossians 1:16,17 has no
basis in the Greek texts. This
translation, biased by design, aims to
support the heterodox Watchtower
doctrine that portrays Jesus as a
created entity, not as God Almighty.
However, the truth in Colossians 1:16 is
clear: Christ created “all things.”
Hence, Christ cannot himself be a
created being (Rhodes 27).

By contrast, Isaiah 44:24 shows that
Jehovah made all things by Himself, not
through the agency of someone else. In
this verse, God declares, "I, the LORD
[Yahweh], am the maker of all things,
stretching out the heavens by Myself,
and spreading out the earth all alone"
(NASB, emphasis added). This statement
that Yahweh made everything "by Myself"
and did it "all alone" clearly
contradicts the idea that Yahweh created
Jesus first and then made everything
else through Him. Since Isaiah 44:24
refers to Yahweh as the sole creator of
the universe, and other scriptures like
John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 call Jesus
the creator, it strongly suggests that
Jesus is indeed God (Rhodes 24-27).

5) The New World Translation lies about
it's use of brackets:

The introduction to the New World
Translation claims that some words are
added in brackets to smooth out the
reading experience in English, without
altering the text's original meaning.
Yet, adding the word "other" to
Colossians 1:16,17 significantly changes
the scripture's meaning. The Watchtower
Society's aim here is clear: they want
to present Jesus as a created figure,
not as God Almighty. Interestingly, in
the 1950 version of the New World
Translation, these four instances of
"other" in these verses didn't have
brackets, making it seem like the word
was part of the original Greek text. It
wasn't until 1961, after evangelical
scholars pointed out this distortion,
that brackets were included to indicate
these were additions. Now, on their
website, it looks like they have removed
the brackets altogether (jw.org)(Rhodes
24-27).

It goes on and on and on. Lord willing,
I'll address more of these examples
later (e.g. John 1:1, etc.). Suffice it
to say that the NWT (New World
Translation), is an assault on the real
Bible, that was written by men who were
not competent to translate from the
original languages. It has changed over
the years, and always in such a way as
to accommodate Watchtower doctrines.


-----------------

Sources

William Barclay, The Expository Times,
November 1953.

Jerry and Marian Bodine, Witnessing to
the Witnesses (Irvine, CA: n.p., n.d.),
pp. 39-40.

Robert Bowman, Understanding Jehovah’s
Witnesses (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1991),
p. 66.

Robert H. Countess, The Jehovah’s
Witnesses New Testament (Phillipsburg,
NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1982), p. 91.

Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience
(Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983), p.
50, note 15.

jw.org. "Colossians 1 | Online Bible |
New World Translation". Jw,
https://jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/colossians/1/.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.

Julius R. Mantey, cited in Erich and
Jean Grieshaber, Exposé of Jehovah’s
Witnesses (Tyler: Jean Books, 1982), p. 30.

Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults
(Minneapolis: Bethany, 1974), p. 124.

Reasoning from the Scriptures (Brooklyn:
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society,
1989), p. 409.

Rhodes, R. (2001) The 10 most important
things you can say to a jehovah’s
witness. Eugene, OR: Harvest House
Publishers, pp. 24–27.

The Watchtower. "JWS Online Library".
Jws-library, 1 Mar. 1880,
https://jws-library.one/?file=data/1880/w_E_18800301/w_E_18800301.html.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.

ibid. Jws-library, 15 Jul. 1898,
https://jws-library.one/?file=data/1898/w_E_18980715/w_E_18980715.html.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.

The Watchtower. "JWS Online Library".
Jws-library, 1 Mar. 1880,
https://jws-library.one/?file=data/1880/w_E_18800301/w_E_18800301.html.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.

ibid. "JWS Online Library". Jws-library,
15 Jul. 1898,
https://jws-library.one/?file=data/1898/w_E_18980715/w_E_18980715.html.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.

ibid. "Do You Really Accept the
Teachings of Christ? ". Wol, 15 Jul.
1959,
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1959521.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.

ibid. "Questions From Readers ". Wol, 01
Nov. 1964, pg. 671,
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1964807.
Accessed 25 April. 2024.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
Richard Carl Silk
2024-10-09 19:14:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 12:05:28 -0500
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
Clearly, this disabuses "the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of
Pennsylvania" of any notion that their founder's private interpretation of the
Johannes Gerber) http://youtu.be/tfW4pr8H-8U
The Watchtower Bible (New World Translation) is an abominable assault against
the Bible. It was translated by those who were incompetent to deal with the
original languages, has changed significantly in it's theology over the years,
has altered key Bible verses to conform them to Watchtower theology, lies
about it's use of brackets (then evidently removed them in their online
version at jw.org), etc. James, your "Bible" is clearly an assault on the real
Bible.
To whomever wrote that last retort, 1) the quoted start begins with RCS stating
that the NWT is disqualified simply by citing (from the preceding portion of the
quoted text):>
2 Peter 1:20 records- Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of
Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. 21 For
prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human,
spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Picking up again from the original message:>
Clearly, this disabuses "the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of
Pennsylvania" of any notion that their founder's private interpretation of the
Bible, the NWT, has *any* validity whatsoever (IE: the NWT "speaks falsely." Cf:
Johannes Gerber) http://youtu.be/tfW4pr8H-8U

The reason for this reply is that (whomever) appears to be addressing a diatribe
to a person named "James" which is unexplained and feels unwarranted.
Christ Rose
2024-10-09 22:25:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
========================================
On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 14:14:23 -0500
<ve6kmi$2op70$***@dont-email.me>
"Richard Carl Silk"
<***@Juno.Com> wrote:
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
Post by Christ Rose
========================================
On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 12:05:28 -0500
========================================
Post by Richard Carl Silk
Clearly, this disabuses "the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of
Pennsylvania" of any notion that their founder's private interpretation of the
Johannes Gerber) http://youtu.be/tfW4pr8H-8U
The Watchtower Bible (New World Translation) is an abominable assault against
the Bible. It was translated by those who were incompetent to deal with the
original languages, has changed significantly in it's theology over the years,
has altered key Bible verses to conform them to Watchtower theology, lies
about it's use of brackets (then evidently removed them in their online
version at jw.org), etc. James, your "Bible" is clearly an assault on the real
Bible.
To whomever wrote that last retort, 1) the quoted start begins with RCS stating
that the NWT is disqualified simply by citing (from the preceding portion of the
quoted text):>
2 Peter 1:20 records- Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of
Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. 21 For
prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human,
spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Picking up again from the original message:>
Clearly, this disabuses "the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of
Pennsylvania" of any notion that their founder's private interpretation of the
Johannes Gerber) http://youtu.be/tfW4pr8H-8U
The reason for this reply is that (whomever) appears to be addressing a diatribe
to a person named "James" which is unexplained and feels unwarranted.
We both agree in the fallacy of the NWT.
James is someone who frequents these
groups, who promotes it, while
condemning every other translation as
being innacurate, over simple things
like how it translates "hell".
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (†), and God raised Him
from the dead?

That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.

On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)

https://christrose.news/salvation
Danart
2024-10-10 04:33:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Total Victory of Christ (unofficial)
AI Argument for Universal Salvation REVISITE

This is the extended argument for Universal Salvation presented i
this video, originally based on, and resulting from, my debate wit
AInn1. God is all-loving and desires all people t
be..

Christianity is a sect of Judaism. It was rejected by th
high council in the Stoning of Stephen. During this time Christian
was hunted down, put to death and or slavery, or some other form o
punishment ( holocaust basically or even what homosexuals faced )
They did not want to lose there power to the "King o
Kings".

When Christianity was accepted by the Pagans it was distasteful t
Islam. This why the Jews in Europe was under protections of Islam. Wh
Christianity was down-played via "refusal of pilgrimage"
All these people was White more or less. This was hundreds upo
hundreds of years that passed

This caused the Crusades which resulted in the hate, disdain, an
negativity towards Judaism and Islam all the way int
WWII. Only afterwards during the Reconstruction began th
commercialization or comparison to Jim-crow with Judaism ( which i
and was a lie ). These are white people we are talking about, wh
hides the truth with more lies.

The so called Zionist today are more or less atheists. They us
Judaism as a shield to hide behind. To make there lives easier. Th
majority of J-u-e in Israel is the result of Eastern European
flooding into Zionist Israel. not the locales and barely any European

1973 desegregation of schools. The end of Jim-Crow gave reason fo
many people to flee. Zionist Israel was an option

Today much of US economy is being abused by Zionist Israel and locale
hiding behind the Star of David. When in reality they still seek deat
of Chrisitans and death of African Americans, and brainwashing of eac
other

People who call themselves slaves in reality could careless right o
wrong. The sad part are good people among those peopl

.............

You need to accept Chris
Reject the Paganism Catholicis
Christianity is the way and by that I mean wha
Christ->John->Peter->Stephen->Pual all preached
Not be fooled by false prophets nore idols. Protect your childre
while we have "choice" AKA freedom


This is a response to the post seen at
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=673032718#67303271

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