Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization

[Meeeeaow]

Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization

By Mark Glenn

It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that
the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the
world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That
's right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of
the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly
responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but
of the entire Western world in general.

Besides the fact that Western Civilization began in the area of the Fertile
Crescent, also known as Mesopotamia (present day Iraq), it is as well an
historical fact beyond dispute that it was the learning and sophistication
of the Arab culture that led to many of the scientific developments that
would later make Europe the cradle of science, learning, and advancement.
After the institutionalization of the Islamic religion throughout the
Mediterranean region, the extent of Arab learning and culture was such that
European Kings, Christian Kings, would send their sons and daughters to be
educated in Moslem places such as Cordova and Toledo. Christian Crusaders
coming back from the Middle East told of the richness of Arab culture,
leading to Europeans' desire for Arab goods, which in turn led to trade
routes between Europe and the Middle East. The resulting wealth created from
that trade with the Arabs led to the ascendancy of power for European
city-states such as Venice and Florence, which became the birthplaces of the
Renaissance in Europe. Arab advancements in navigation, from the Astrolabe
to the compass to the fast sailing ship known as the Caravel made possible
the arrival in the New World of the Europeans. Let's not forget, Spain and
Portugal, those two powers who held a virtual monopoly on exploration in the
New World for quite a while, were, for 700 years, held by the Arabs.

What will gall Americans even more, especially those who call themselves
Christian, is the idea that it may be the Arab and Muslim culture that will
be not only the birthplace of Western Civilization, but the savior of it as
well.

As evidenced by the nightly news right now, there is a war going on.
Superficially, it is about things like "terrorism" and "freedom." There are
some who go a step further and blame oil and banking, not to mention
"lebensraum" for Israel. And while all these things do play a part, some
greater than others, the real war here is between two world views.

During the debates that took place in the UN between the internationalist
cabal led by France, Germany, Russia, Belgium, and China on one side and the
nationalists led by the United States, Great Britain, (and behind the
scenes, Israel,) there was this "tossing around" of phrases in coded
language. The nationalist crowd, represented in the debates by Colin Powell,
spoke of "Old Europe" in a castigating attempt to portray those opposing the
war against Iraq as somehow backwards in their thinking, as opposed to those
in the New World, who were enlightened and were here to save all humanity
against dangerous men and dangerous ideas. And although we know that the
reasons for the internationalist crowd opposing the war against Iraq had
little to do with anything other than protecting their own business
interests as well as staving off US hegemony in the world in favor of
internationalist hegemony, it did illustrate that there is, at least on the
part of the "coalition of the willing" a desire to do away with that ethos
held by the Old World (meaning the Middle-East) that serves as an obstacle
in building that New World Order that Bush the Elder discussed more than a
decade ago, even if it means seeing the US leading it rather than the UN.

To the "New World," and by default the New World Order, the Arab/Muslim
world is backwards in its values. It prohibits abortion and birth control.
They have large families, as opposed to the West, where the average family
has only 2 children. It prohibits usury banking, to which the West credits
its own economic superiority. Theirs is a "closed" society (read into this
no sodomy, pornography, gay lifestyle, et al) Theirs is a "cruel" society
(read into this-they do not have people on death row for 20 years) And
finally, they will not play the game the way the market wants it played,
meaning, they want a just price for their only real source of wealth, their
oil, instead of giving it away to the West for a fraction of its worth. In
other words, the picture that has just been painted here is, the Muslim
world is now what the Christian world once was and should be.

One can already hear the roar coming out of the mouths of many who have not
been thinking of this in a critical way, particularly those well-paid
mouthpieces on TV and radio masquerading themselves as Christians. "The
religion of Mohammed is better than the religion of Jesus Christ?!" No,
rather, what is meant here is that the religion of Islam resembles
Christianity more than does the Christianity of the West today, because the
Christianity of the West today isn't Christianity at all, but a watered-down
amalgamation of New Ageism mixed with certain common spiritual attributes
that, although called Christian, can be found in almost every known
religion. Through decades of destructive influence and propaganda through
media and academia, mainstream Christianity in the West has been reduced to
one remaining commandment, vague and hard to pin-point which is "be nice."

The fact of the matter is, putting aside all the other reasons surrounding
this war that were enumerated at the beginning of this essay, what exists in
the Middle East, or in The Old World, as some would call it, is a culture
that is still devoted to principles concerning basic moral values, values
that have not yet surrendered to the corrupting influence of Western media
or Western money. Within the last 50 years, every culture has fallen before
this corrupting power that seeks to enslave all men in such a way that the
individual is reduced to the value of what he produces and what he consumes,
and in pursuit of that method, the individuals behind this program have
quietly but decisively removed every obstacle in their way, be it religion,
culture, morals, tradition, or world view, through the methods of media,
academia, and finance; that is, except the culture encapsulated in the
Islamic/Arabic World.

By the description "Arabic/Islamic," it should not be understood as solely a
"Muslim" thing. The culture existing in the Arab world is held by both
Christian and Muslim alike. There are millions of Christians, who have in
essence the same culture with their Muslim counterparts in much the same way
as most Americans, regardless of religion, have the same culture. It is
those Christians and Muslims alike who reject these "modern" notions such as
abortion, birth control, sodomy, pornography, usury banking, and "market
value" of services and resources. They still view the family, the
traditional family, with all its traditional roles, as the most important
building block of their society, and they take very seriously anything that
threatens it. They recognize the value of their children, and how dangerous
the moral relativism of the West has become, threatening the stability of
society directly. They recognize that if their children and society as a
whole are subjected to ideas that promote moral decay for an extended period
of time, what will eventually and unavoidably be produced is national decay.

One should consider the fact that the New World Order has used and is using
all its resources and influence to emasculate and neutralize all opposition
to its agenda in the world. The Catholic Church, once a political power to
be feared by presidents and prime ministers the world over, has been
rendered obsolete. Through mouthpieces such as John Paul II, the New World
Order has been openly embraced, and if at times the church gets a little
rambunctious and steps out of line, well, the NWO crowd merely runs new
stories revealing allegations of pedophilia and abuse. The mainstream
Protestant groups, led by influential people on the television and radio,
may talk of the dangers of the NWO and the secularization of the West, yet
still openly embrace Bush when he pushes through various pieces of
legislation that rob us of our freedoms under the guise of protection from
terrorism, as well as the practice of conveniently "forgetting" about Bush's
caving in to the pro-abortion lobby in various instances. So, with the
exception of a few pockets of token resistance, there is no one left
standing in the way of the NWO except the Arab/Muslim World.

If by some miracle the Arab/Muslim world is victorious against this
onslaught, and the secular/atheistic influence of the NWO agenda is reduced
to such a level as to allow the Christian West to regain its foothold where
it once stood, it will be necessary to credit the religion of Islam and the
Arab world for not buckling under in the face of extermination. And it will
be we, the Christian West and Western Civilization, who will be the
beneficiaries of "Islamic Extremism."

Mark Glenn is an American and former high school teacher turned writer /
commentator. He contributed above article to Media Monitors Network (MMN).

[Boris Dynin]

I think modern civilization was pretty much derived from Romans and (prior
to them) Greeks.
I don't know history very well but this's such an obvious fact that probably
every middle-school student knows it.
Philosophy, astronomy, math, etc.

Boris

Post by Meeeeaow
Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization
By Mark Glenn
It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that
the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the
world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That
's right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of
the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly
responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but
of the entire Western world in general.
Besides the fact that Western Civilization began in the area of the Fertile
Crescent, also known as Mesopotamia (present day Iraq), it is as well an
historical fact beyond dispute that it was the learning and sophistication
of the Arab culture that led to many of the scientific developments that
would later make Europe the cradle of science, learning, and advancement.
After the institutionalization of the Islamic religion throughout the
Mediterranean region, the extent of Arab learning and culture was such that
European Kings, Christian Kings, would send their sons and daughters to be
educated in Moslem places such as Cordova and Toledo. Christian Crusaders
coming back from the Middle East told of the richness of Arab culture,
leading to Europeans' desire for Arab goods, which in turn led to trade
routes between Europe and the Middle East. The resulting wealth created from
that trade with the Arabs led to the ascendancy of power for European
city-states such as Venice and Florence, which became the birthplaces of the
Renaissance in Europe. Arab advancements in navigation, from the Astrolabe
to the compass to the fast sailing ship known as the Caravel made possible
the arrival in the New World of the Europeans. Let's not forget, Spain and
Portugal, those two powers who held a virtual monopoly on exploration in the
New World for quite a while, were, for 700 years, held by the Arabs.
What will gall Americans even more, especially those who call themselves
Christian, is the idea that it may be the Arab and Muslim culture that will
be not only the birthplace of Western Civilization, but the savior of it as
well.
As evidenced by the nightly news right now, there is a war going on.
Superficially, it is about things like "terrorism" and "freedom." There are
some who go a step further and blame oil and banking, not to mention
"lebensraum" for Israel. And while all these things do play a part, some
greater than others, the real war here is between two world views.
During the debates that took place in the UN between the internationalist
cabal led by France, Germany, Russia, Belgium, and China on one side and the
nationalists led by the United States, Great Britain, (and behind the
scenes, Israel,) there was this "tossing around" of phrases in coded
language. The nationalist crowd, represented in the debates by Colin Powell,
spoke of "Old Europe" in a castigating attempt to portray those opposing the
war against Iraq as somehow backwards in their thinking, as opposed to those
in the New World, who were enlightened and were here to save all humanity
against dangerous men and dangerous ideas. And although we know that the
reasons for the internationalist crowd opposing the war against Iraq had
little to do with anything other than protecting their own business
interests as well as staving off US hegemony in the world in favor of
internationalist hegemony, it did illustrate that there is, at least on the
part of the "coalition of the willing" a desire to do away with that ethos
held by the Old World (meaning the Middle-East) that serves as an obstacle
in building that New World Order that Bush the Elder discussed more than a
decade ago, even if it means seeing the US leading it rather than the UN.
To the "New World," and by default the New World Order, the Arab/Muslim
world is backwards in its values. It prohibits abortion and birth control.
They have large families, as opposed to the West, where the average family
has only 2 children. It prohibits usury banking, to which the West credits
its own economic superiority. Theirs is a "closed" society (read into this
no sodomy, pornography, gay lifestyle, et al) Theirs is a "cruel" society
(read into this-they do not have people on death row for 20 years) And
finally, they will not play the game the way the market wants it played,
meaning, they want a just price for their only real source of wealth, their
oil, instead of giving it away to the West for a fraction of its worth. In
other words, the picture that has just been painted here is, the Muslim
world is now what the Christian world once was and should be.
One can already hear the roar coming out of the mouths of many who have not
been thinking of this in a critical way, particularly those well-paid
mouthpieces on TV and radio masquerading themselves as Christians. "The
religion of Mohammed is better than the religion of Jesus Christ?!" No,
rather, what is meant here is that the religion of Islam resembles
Christianity more than does the Christianity of the West today, because the
Christianity of the West today isn't Christianity at all, but a watered-down
amalgamation of New Ageism mixed with certain common spiritual attributes
that, although called Christian, can be found in almost every known
religion. Through decades of destructive influence and propaganda through
media and academia, mainstream Christianity in the West has been reduced to
one remaining commandment, vague and hard to pin-point which is "be nice."
The fact of the matter is, putting aside all the other reasons surrounding
this war that were enumerated at the beginning of this essay, what exists in
the Middle East, or in The Old World, as some would call it, is a culture
that is still devoted to principles concerning basic moral values, values
that have not yet surrendered to the corrupting influence of Western media
or Western money. Within the last 50 years, every culture has fallen before
this corrupting power that seeks to enslave all men in such a way that the
individual is reduced to the value of what he produces and what he consumes,
and in pursuit of that method, the individuals behind this program have
quietly but decisively removed every obstacle in their way, be it religion,
culture, morals, tradition, or world view, through the methods of media,
academia, and finance; that is, except the culture encapsulated in the
Islamic/Arabic World.
By the description "Arabic/Islamic," it should not be understood as solely a
"Muslim" thing. The culture existing in the Arab world is held by both
Christian and Muslim alike. There are millions of Christians, who have in
essence the same culture with their Muslim counterparts in much the same way
as most Americans, regardless of religion, have the same culture. It is
those Christians and Muslims alike who reject these "modern" notions such as
abortion, birth control, sodomy, pornography, usury banking, and "market
value" of services and resources. They still view the family, the
traditional family, with all its traditional roles, as the most important
building block of their society, and they take very seriously anything that
threatens it. They recognize the value of their children, and how dangerous
the moral relativism of the West has become, threatening the stability of
society directly. They recognize that if their children and society as a
whole are subjected to ideas that promote moral decay for an extended period
of time, what will eventually and unavoidably be produced is national decay.
One should consider the fact that the New World Order has used and is using
all its resources and influence to emasculate and neutralize all opposition
to its agenda in the world. The Catholic Church, once a political power to
be feared by presidents and prime ministers the world over, has been
rendered obsolete. Through mouthpieces such as John Paul II, the New World
Order has been openly embraced, and if at times the church gets a little
rambunctious and steps out of line, well, the NWO crowd merely runs new
stories revealing allegations of pedophilia and abuse. The mainstream
Protestant groups, led by influential people on the television and radio,
may talk of the dangers of the NWO and the secularization of the West, yet
still openly embrace Bush when he pushes through various pieces of
legislation that rob us of our freedoms under the guise of protection from
terrorism, as well as the practice of conveniently "forgetting" about Bush's
caving in to the pro-abortion lobby in various instances. So, with the
exception of a few pockets of token resistance, there is no one left
standing in the way of the NWO except the Arab/Muslim World.
If by some miracle the Arab/Muslim world is victorious against this
onslaught, and the secular/atheistic influence of the NWO agenda is reduced
to such a level as to allow the Christian West to regain its foothold where
it once stood, it will be necessary to credit the religion of Islam and the
Arab world for not buckling under in the face of extermination. And it will
be we, the Christian West and Western Civilization, who will be the
beneficiaries of "Islamic Extremism."
Mark Glenn is an American and former high school teacher turned writer /
commentator. He contributed above article to Media Monitors Network (MMN).

[fwaggle]

Post by Meeeeaow
Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization
By Mark Glenn
It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that
the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the
world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That
's right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of
the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly
responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but
of the entire Western world in general.

Listen dude, the Arabs were a bunch of wild animals. They ate raw meat and
didn't have any culture at all before they attacked Persia and took over everything.
And basically, all the knowledge that the Europeans acquired during the crusade
was from the Persians, not the Arabs. I mean what the hell did the Arabs even
have worth stealing?

And before you go patting yourself on the back for that ridiculous article, I have to
tell you that the Arabs destroyed many huge libraries and burnt
thousands of books just because they thought "there should exist no book other than
the Quran". Anything that was saved, was then recovered by those same moron
Arabs later on, after they discovered that science is in fact good. Which would be
why they've taken all the credit for it.
Just imagine what the world today would be like if all those libraries weren't burnt.
And all those scientists weren't killed.

Hell, I'd imagine the wars in the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries would have never
even happened and instead of death and destruction, the Christians would've made
peace with the Middle Eastern Asians.

Post by Meeeeaow
Besides the fact that Western Civilization began in the area of the Fertile
Crescent, also known as Mesopotamia (present day Iraq), it is as well an
historical fact beyond dispute that it was the learning and sophistication
of the Arab culture that led to many of the scientific developments that
would later make Europe the cradle of science, learning, and advancement.
After the institutionalization of the Islamic religion throughout the
Mediterranean region, the extent of Arab learning and culture was such that
European Kings, Christian Kings, would send their sons and daughters to be
educated in Moslem places such as Cordova and Toledo. Christian Crusaders
coming back from the Middle East told of the richness of Arab culture,
leading to Europeans' desire for Arab goods, which in turn led to trade
routes between Europe and the Middle East. The resulting wealth created from
that trade with the Arabs led to the ascendancy of power for European
city-states such as Venice and Florence, which became the birthplaces of the
Renaissance in Europe. Arab advancements in navigation, from the Astrolabe
to the compass to the fast sailing ship known as the Caravel made possible
the arrival in the New World of the Europeans. Let's not forget, Spain and
Portugal, those two powers who held a virtual monopoly on exploration in the
New World for quite a while, were, for 700 years, held by the Arabs.

So fuckin what? The area which you speak of (Iraq/Babylon) was not inhabited
by Arabs at the time. So how the hell do they fit in the picture here?

Again, Arabs had no culture. They lived in the desert. They attacked civilized
countries, raped women, and damn, probably raped men too.

Planet of the apes could have easily been based on this story.
Primitive Arabs think they are the best. There's a couple of 'em that know
they are nothing, but they do not admit it to the people, just for the shit
of it all. And all the rest...

Furthermore, ALL these scientific advancements that you speak of were achieved
by the Persians (and Hindus), not Arabs. If you had studied the least bit of History,
you would know that.

Post by Meeeeaow
What will gall Americans even more, especially those who call themselves
Christian, is the idea that it may be the Arab and Muslim culture that will
be not only the birthplace of Western Civilization, but the savior of it as
well.

Please stop referring to cannibalism, torture and rape as culture. The Arabs
may be the creators of child pornography, BDSM and incest, but those things
are not considered "Western Civilization", pal.

Post by Meeeeaow
As evidenced by the nightly news right now, there is a war going on.
Superficially, it is about things like "terrorism" and "freedom." There are
some who go a step further and blame oil and banking, not to mention
"lebensraum" for Israel. And while all these things do play a part, some
greater than others, the real war here is between two world views.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Post by Meeeeaow
During the debates that took place in the UN between the internationalist
cabal led by France, Germany, Russia, Belgium, and China on one side and the
nationalists led by the United States, Great Britain, (and behind the
scenes, Israel,) there was this "tossing around" of phrases in coded
language. The nationalist crowd, represented in the debates by Colin Powell,
spoke of "Old Europe" in a castigating attempt to portray those opposing the
war against Iraq as somehow backwards in their thinking, as opposed to those
in the New World, who were enlightened and were here to save all humanity
against dangerous men and dangerous ideas. And although we know that the
reasons for the internationalist crowd opposing the war against Iraq had
little to do with anything other than protecting their own business
interests as well as staving off US hegemony in the world in favor of
internationalist hegemony, it did illustrate that there is, at least on the
part of the "coalition of the willing" a desire to do away with that ethos
held by the Old World (meaning the Middle-East) that serves as an obstacle
in building that New World Order that Bush the Elder discussed more than a
decade ago, even if it means seeing the US leading it rather than the UN.

Ok, how does this relate to atheism or religion even?
You're starting to babble off about politics. Great article jackass.

Post by Meeeeaow
To the "New World," and by default the New World Order, the Arab/Muslim
world is backwards in its values. It prohibits abortion and birth control.
They have large families, as opposed to the West, where the average family
has only 2 children. It prohibits usury banking, to which the West credits
its own economic superiority. Theirs is a "closed" society (read into this
no sodomy, pornography, gay lifestyle, et al) Theirs is a "cruel" society
(read into this-they do not have people on death row for 20 years) And
finally, they will not play the game the way the market wants it played,
meaning, they want a just price for their only real source of wealth, their
oil, instead of giving it away to the West for a fraction of its worth. In
other words, the picture that has just been painted here is, the Muslim
world is now what the Christian world once was and should be.

Pornography is banned, but that doesn't mean people wouldn't like to
do it. So is homosexuality. You murder gay people. What's the sense in that?
Where in the Quran does it say that it's wrong for two men to engage in
sexual activity?

Also, what's the sense in painfully killing (stoning) a woman because she
had sex? What's the sense in raping a virgin before murdering her?
I mean come on.

Abdullah: OMG What the fuck are you doing to that prisoner, Mustafa?

[Mustafa stops anally pounding 15 year old girl]

Mustafa: Uh, she's guilty of something.. or some other thing. And she's
supposed to be hanged today.

Abdullah: So? That doesn't give you the right to rape her.

Mustafa: Uh, umm.. sure it does. See, umm.. if a virgin girl dies, she goes straight
to uh... heaven, right?

Abdullah: uh.. huh?

Mustafa: Yeah, and since this ho commited a crime, she shouldn't go to
heaven. (Because it's up to me and you to decide who goes to heaven and
who doesn't. and besides, women have no right to go to heaven) anyway,
I'm taking away her virginity before she dies, so she won't go to heaven.

[Religious master of the current time overhears, enters]

AlGholamReza: Assalamusomethingandanother my brothers. I heard what you
said, my friend and I think we should make a law out of this. It's genius. We get to
have a lot of sex, and all in the name of religion and god! OMGOMG!!!

Post by Meeeeaow
One can already hear the roar coming out of the mouths of many who have not
been thinking of this in a critical way, particularly those well-paid
mouthpieces on TV and radio masquerading themselves as Christians. "The
religion of Mohammed is better than the religion of Jesus Christ?!" No,
rather, what is meant here is that the religion of Islam resembles
Christianity more than does the Christianity of the West today, because the
Christianity of the West today isn't Christianity at all, but a watered-down
amalgamation of New Ageism mixed with certain common spiritual attributes
that, although called Christian, can be found in almost every known
religion. Through decades of destructive influence and propaganda through
media and academia, mainstream Christianity in the West has been reduced to
one remaining commandment, vague and hard to pin-point which is "be nice."

Since I'm reading this in an Atheist newsgroup. I must express my opinion,
that religion just doesn't work alltogether. Doesn't matter what it's called.

Post by Meeeeaow
The fact of the matter is, putting aside all the other reasons surrounding
this war that were enumerated at the beginning of this essay, what exists in
the Middle East, or in The Old World, as some would call it, is a culture
that is still devoted to principles concerning basic moral values, values
that have not yet surrendered to the corrupting influence of Western media
or Western money. Within the last 50 years, every culture has fallen before
this corrupting power that seeks to enslave all men in such a way that the
individual is reduced to the value of what he produces and what he consumes,
and in pursuit of that method, the individuals behind this program have
quietly but decisively removed every obstacle in their way, be it religion,
culture, morals, tradition, or world view, through the methods of media,
academia, and finance; that is, except the culture encapsulated in the
Islamic/Arabic World.

I have no idea what you're talkin about. But capitalism is man's problem.
Not religion's. And it exists in Muslim countries as well.
I can tell you that it exists in Iran and the United Arab Emirates for sure.
Doesn't every teen go to school every morning, in Arab society?
Doesn't every teen then proceed to get a higher education?
Doesn't everyone work in order to get money?
I doubt the Arab society is so evolved that money has no meaning anymore.
It's like this everywhere and people are trying to blend in instead of fighting it.
Everyone tries hard at getting into college and getting a high paying desk job,
instead of doing something useful. (Now, you might say: "How is writing software
for Microsoft not useful???" or "How is making new video games not useful??"
or "How is trading stock not useful??" -- I can give you a fuckin HUGE list of
'jobs' that shouldn't even exist for fucks sake!)
Those who oppose this nonsense are labeled 'morons' or possibly 'terrorists' (I
don't know, dubyew could call a cow a terrorist).
What do you do to these people in your Arab society? Award them?

Post by Meeeeaow
By the description "Arabic/Islamic," it should not be understood as solely a
"Muslim" thing. The culture existing in the Arab world is held by both
Christian and Muslim alike. There are millions of Christians, who have in
essence the same culture with their Muslim counterparts in much the same way
as most Americans, regardless of religion, have the same culture. It is
those Christians and Muslims alike who reject these "modern" notions such as
abortion, birth control, sodomy, pornography, usury banking, and "market
value" of services and resources. They still view the family, the
traditional family, with all its traditional roles, as the most important
building block of their society, and they take very seriously anything that
threatens it. They recognize the value of their children, and how dangerous
the moral relativism of the West has become, threatening the stability of
society directly. They recognize that if their children and society as a
whole are subjected to ideas that promote moral decay for an extended period
of time, what will eventually and unavoidably be produced is national decay.

I'm not even going to dignify all that with a proper response.

Post by Meeeeaow
One should consider the fact that the New World Order has used and is using
all its resources and influence to emasculate and neutralize all opposition
to its agenda in the world. The Catholic Church, once a political power to
be feared by presidents and prime ministers the world over, has been
rendered obsolete. Through mouthpieces such as John Paul II, the New World
Order has been openly embraced, and if at times the church gets a little
rambunctious and steps out of line, well, the NWO crowd merely runs new
stories revealing allegations of pedophilia and abuse. The mainstream
Protestant groups, led by influential people on the television and radio,
may talk of the dangers of the NWO and the secularization of the West, yet
still openly embrace Bush when he pushes through various pieces of
legislation that rob us of our freedoms under the guise of protection from
terrorism, as well as the practice of conveniently "forgetting" about Bush's
caving in to the pro-abortion lobby in various instances. So, with the
exception of a few pockets of token resistance, there is no one left
standing in the way of the NWO except the Arab/Muslim World.

Don't take it too personally. It's just politics. And people are usually the
enemy against politics. So it doesn't matter much what your religion is.
You're either a sheep that follows the shepherd or you stay behind and get
eaten by the fox or wolf (not really sure which one). That's how the world
today works. And unless a huge amount of people are willing to stand behind
and tell the politicans to fist themselves. Nothing's going to change.

Post by Meeeeaow
If by some miracle the Arab/Muslim world is victorious against this
onslaught, and the secular/atheistic influence of the NWO agenda is reduced
to such a level as to allow the Christian West to regain its foothold where
it once stood, it will be necessary to credit the religion of Islam and the
Arab world for not buckling under in the face of extermination. And it will
be we, the Christian West and Western Civilization, who will be the
beneficiaries of "Islamic Extremism."

Why are you thinking of gaining victory over other people all the time?
Fight that lame pride and ego and try to live peacefully instead of blowing up
towers. And besides, don't Muslims believe that god will save THEM in
the end and no other religious group will survive? So, you've got nothing
to worry about. Just sit the fuck down and shut your mouth. Everything's
gonna work out exactly the way YOU want it to.

Post by Meeeeaow
Mark Glenn is an American and former high school teacher turned writer /
commentator. He contributed above article to Media Monitors Network (MMN).

and I'm fwaggle. I've been having a very strange insomnia the past week and
I'm awake at 3AM responding to a freakin Usenet post.
Nice to meet you.

-fwaggle

[Meeeeaow]

, I have to tell you that the Arabs destroyed many huge libraries and burnt
thousands of books just because they thought "there should exist no book other than
the Quran".

Below are the first 5 verses revealed to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the cave
of Hira. And then he came out and changed the course of humanity in 23
years.

1. Read: In the name of thy Lord who createth,
2. Createth man from a clot.
3. Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
4. Who teacheth by the pen,
5. Teacheth man that which be knew not.


Obviously you need to read more.
(and watch less TV )

[maff]

Post by fwaggle

Post by Meeeeaow
Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization
By Mark Glenn
It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that
the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the
world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That
's right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of
the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly
responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but
of the entire Western world in general.

Listen dude, the Arabs were a bunch of wild animals. They ate raw meat and
didn't have any culture at all before they attacked Persia and took over everything.
And basically, all the knowledge that the Europeans acquired during the crusade
was from the Persians, not the Arabs. I mean what the hell did the Arabs even
have worth stealing?
And before you go patting yourself on the back for that ridiculous article, I have to
tell you that the Arabs destroyed many huge libraries and burnt

That was the specialized by the Christians and the Mongols.

Hypatia of Alexandria
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Hypatia+of+Alexandria&sa=N&tab=nw

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Hypatia+of+Alexandria&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=Hypatia%20of%20Alexandria&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en

Library of Alexandria
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Library+of+Alexandria%22&sa=N&tab=gn

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Library+of+Alexandria%22&sa=N&tab=nw

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Library+of+Alexandria%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Library%20of%20Alexandria&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en

Post by fwaggle
thousands of books just because they thought "there should exist no book other than
the Quran". Anything that was saved, was then recovered by those same moron
Arabs later on, after they discovered that science is in fact good. Which would be
why they've taken all the credit for it.
Just imagine what the world today would be like if all those libraries weren't burnt.
And all those scientists weren't killed.
Hell, I'd imagine the wars in the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries would have never
even happened and instead of death and destruction, the Christians would've made
peace with the Middle Eastern Asians.

The Rise of Early Modern Science : Islam, China and the West
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521434963/
by Toby E. Huff

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Toby+Huff&sa=N&tab=nw

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Toby+Huff&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=Toby%20Huff&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&lr=&num=100&hl=en

Islamic scientists
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&cat=&q=+%22Islamic+scientists%22&sa=N&tab=dw

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Islamic+scientists%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Islamic%20scientists&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en

Post by fwaggle

Post by Meeeeaow
Besides the fact that Western Civilization began in the area of the Fertile
Crescent, also known as Mesopotamia (present day Iraq), it is as well an
historical fact beyond dispute that it was the learning and sophistication
of the Arab culture that led to many of the scientific developments that
would later make Europe the cradle of science, learning, and advancement.
After the institutionalization of the Islamic religion throughout the
Mediterranean region, the extent of Arab learning and culture was such that
European Kings, Christian Kings, would send their sons and daughters to be
educated in Moslem places such as Cordova and Toledo. Christian Crusaders
coming back from the Middle East told of the richness of Arab culture,
leading to Europeans' desire for Arab goods, which in turn led to trade
routes between Europe and the Middle East. The resulting wealth created from
that trade with the Arabs led to the ascendancy of power for European
city-states such as Venice and Florence, which became the birthplaces of the
Renaissance in Europe. Arab advancements in navigation, from the Astrolabe
to the compass to the fast sailing ship known as the Caravel made possible
the arrival in the New World of the Europeans. Let's not forget, Spain and
Portugal, those two powers who held a virtual monopoly on exploration in the
New World for quite a while, were, for 700 years, held by the Arabs.

[...]

[Peter]

ACTUALLY IDIOT IF WE DEPENDED ON THE ISLAMIC SAVAGES WE WOULD BE LIVING IN
THE SECOND CENTURY. YES THERE WAS A SCHOOL IN IRAQ BECAUSE THE ISLAMIC
SAVAGES AT THAT TIME THOUGHT THAT THE SATAN BOOK WAS FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF
KNOWLEDGE. THE REASON THEY COULD AFFORD THE FINE SCHOOLS WHERE EUROPEANS CAN
SEND THEIR CHILDREN WAS THE LOOTING AND PLUNDERING THEY DID. IN FACT IT WAS
THE EUROPEANS AND ASIANS WHO MADE ALL THE DISCOVERIES. IN FACT LIAR IT WAS
THE ISLAMIC SAVAGES THAT TRIED TO STYMIE THIS GROWTH LIKE NOT BELIEVING IN
NEGATIVE NUMBERS ETC.

THAN THE ISLAMIC SAVAGES DECIDED THAT THE SATAN BOOK WAS NOT FOR ADVANCEMENT
OF KNOWLEDGE SO ALL KNOWLEDGE STOPPED IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD WHILE IT
PROCEEDED IN THE WEST.
LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING MORON EVERYTHING DISCOVERED THAN WOULD HAVE BEEN
DISCOVERED IN A FEW YEARS ANYWAY BY THE WEST.
HOWEVER THE WEST HELD ON TO THEM WHILE THE ISLAMIC SAVAGES ABANDONED THEM
THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE NOTHING NOW. ALSO MANY OF THE ADVANCEMENTS WERE MADE
BY CONVERTS TO ISLAM FORCED OR OTHERWISE.
--
Peter

http://atcoalition.showsit.info/


http://main.faithfreedom.org/

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.

Post by Meeeeaow
Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization
By Mark Glenn
It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that
the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the
world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That
's right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of
the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly
responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but
of the entire Western world in general.
Besides the fact that Western Civilization began in the area of the Fertile
Crescent, also known as Mesopotamia (present day Iraq), it is as well an
historical fact beyond dispute that it was the learning and sophistication
of the Arab culture that led to many of the scientific developments that
would later make Europe the cradle of science, learning, and advancement.
After the institutionalization of the Islamic religion throughout the
Mediterranean region, the extent of Arab learning and culture was such that
European Kings, Christian Kings, would send their sons and daughters to be
educated in Moslem places such as Cordova and Toledo. Christian Crusaders
coming back from the Middle East told of the richness of Arab culture,
leading to Europeans' desire for Arab goods, which in turn led to trade
routes between Europe and the Middle East. The resulting wealth created from
that trade with the Arabs led to the ascendancy of power for European
city-states such as Venice and Florence, which became the birthplaces of the
Renaissance in Europe. Arab advancements in navigation, from the Astrolabe
to the compass to the fast sailing ship known as the Caravel made possible
the arrival in the New World of the Europeans. Let's not forget, Spain and
Portugal, those two powers who held a virtual monopoly on exploration in the
New World for quite a while, were, for 700 years, held by the Arabs.
What will gall Americans even more, especially those who call themselves
Christian, is the idea that it may be the Arab and Muslim culture that will
be not only the birthplace of Western Civilization, but the savior of it as
well.
As evidenced by the nightly news right now, there is a war going on.
Superficially, it is about things like "terrorism" and "freedom." There are
some who go a step further and blame oil and banking, not to mention
"lebensraum" for Israel. And while all these things do play a part, some
greater than others, the real war here is between two world views.
During the debates that took place in the UN between the internationalist
cabal led by France, Germany, Russia, Belgium, and China on one side and the
nationalists led by the United States, Great Britain, (and behind the
scenes, Israel,) there was this "tossing around" of phrases in coded
language. The nationalist crowd, represented in the debates by Colin Powell,
spoke of "Old Europe" in a castigating attempt to portray those opposing the
war against Iraq as somehow backwards in their thinking, as opposed to those
in the New World, who were enlightened and were here to save all humanity
against dangerous men and dangerous ideas. And although we know that the
reasons for the internationalist crowd opposing the war against Iraq had
little to do with anything other than protecting their own business
interests as well as staving off US hegemony in the world in favor of
internationalist hegemony, it did illustrate that there is, at least on the
part of the "coalition of the willing" a desire to do away with that ethos
held by the Old World (meaning the Middle-East) that serves as an obstacle
in building that New World Order that Bush the Elder discussed more than a
decade ago, even if it means seeing the US leading it rather than the UN.
To the "New World," and by default the New World Order, the Arab/Muslim
world is backwards in its values. It prohibits abortion and birth control.
They have large families, as opposed to the West, where the average family
has only 2 children. It prohibits usury banking, to which the West credits
its own economic superiority. Theirs is a "closed" society (read into this
no sodomy, pornography, gay lifestyle, et al) Theirs is a "cruel" society
(read into this-they do not have people on death row for 20 years) And
finally, they will not play the game the way the market wants it played,
meaning, they want a just price for their only real source of wealth, their
oil, instead of giving it away to the West for a fraction of its worth. In
other words, the picture that has just been painted here is, the Muslim
world is now what the Christian world once was and should be.
One can already hear the roar coming out of the mouths of many who have not
been thinking of this in a critical way, particularly those well-paid
mouthpieces on TV and radio masquerading themselves as Christians. "The
religion of Mohammed is better than the religion of Jesus Christ?!" No,
rather, what is meant here is that the religion of Islam resembles
Christianity more than does the Christianity of the West today, because the
Christianity of the West today isn't Christianity at all, but a watered-down
amalgamation of New Ageism mixed with certain common spiritual attributes
that, although called Christian, can be found in almost every known
religion. Through decades of destructive influence and propaganda through
media and academia, mainstream Christianity in the West has been reduced to
one remaining commandment, vague and hard to pin-point which is "be nice."
The fact of the matter is, putting aside all the other reasons surrounding
this war that were enumerated at the beginning of this essay, what exists in
the Middle East, or in The Old World, as some would call it, is a culture
that is still devoted to principles concerning basic moral values, values
that have not yet surrendered to the corrupting influence of Western media
or Western money. Within the last 50 years, every culture has fallen before
this corrupting power that seeks to enslave all men in such a way that the
individual is reduced to the value of what he produces and what he consumes,
and in pursuit of that method, the individuals behind this program have
quietly but decisively removed every obstacle in their way, be it religion,
culture, morals, tradition, or world view, through the methods of media,
academia, and finance; that is, except the culture encapsulated in the
Islamic/Arabic World.
By the description "Arabic/Islamic," it should not be understood as solely a
"Muslim" thing. The culture existing in the Arab world is held by both
Christian and Muslim alike. There are millions of Christians, who have in
essence the same culture with their Muslim counterparts in much the same way
as most Americans, regardless of religion, have the same culture. It is
those Christians and Muslims alike who reject these "modern" notions such as
abortion, birth control, sodomy, pornography, usury banking, and "market
value" of services and resources. They still view the family, the
traditional family, with all its traditional roles, as the most important
building block of their society, and they take very seriously anything that
threatens it. They recognize the value of their children, and how dangerous
the moral relativism of the West has become, threatening the stability of
society directly. They recognize that if their children and society as a
whole are subjected to ideas that promote moral decay for an extended period
of time, what will eventually and unavoidably be produced is national decay.
One should consider the fact that the New World Order has used and is using
all its resources and influence to emasculate and neutralize all opposition
to its agenda in the world. The Catholic Church, once a political power to
be feared by presidents and prime ministers the world over, has been
rendered obsolete. Through mouthpieces such as John Paul II, the New World
Order has been openly embraced, and if at times the church gets a little
rambunctious and steps out of line, well, the NWO crowd merely runs new
stories revealing allegations of pedophilia and abuse. The mainstream
Protestant groups, led by influential people on the television and radio,
may talk of the dangers of the NWO and the secularization of the West, yet
still openly embrace Bush when he pushes through various pieces of
legislation that rob us of our freedoms under the guise of protection from
terrorism, as well as the practice of conveniently "forgetting" about Bush's
caving in to the pro-abortion lobby in various instances. So, with the
exception of a few pockets of token resistance, there is no one left
standing in the way of the NWO except the Arab/Muslim World.
If by some miracle the Arab/Muslim world is victorious against this
onslaught, and the secular/atheistic influence of the NWO agenda is reduced
to such a level as to allow the Christian West to regain its foothold where
it once stood, it will be necessary to credit the religion of Islam and the
Arab world for not buckling under in the face of extermination. And it will
be we, the Christian West and Western Civilization, who will be the
beneficiaries of "Islamic Extremism."
Mark Glenn is an American and former high school teacher turned writer /
commentator. He contributed above article to Media Monitors Network (MMN).

[Christopher A. Lee]

Post by Peter
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.

Yes there would - perpetrated by ourselves. We put leaders we wanted
in their countries because we wanted the oil. Which they resent, so we
give the people we put there, everything they need to stay inpower. We
do things like twist their arme to allow our troops to be stationed in
Islam's Holy Land "temporarily until Hussein is kicked out of Kuwait"
- and then go back on the promise.

We (through the UN) give land in Syria and Jordan, that isn't ours to
give, to refugees from the holocaust because we were ashamed at not
doing anything about it earlier. The new occupants sieze it in advance
of the UN's timetable and we recognise the new country immediately.
The neighbouring countries understandably don't like it and go to war,
over it so we give the new country everything it needs to defend
itself and more, and they also ethnicly cleanse the previous occupants
into refugee camps where they are 55 years later.

Post by Peter
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.

I doubt it. If Israel withdraws from the occupied territories to its
original UN-mandated boundaries that should be enough. They would
however have to destroy the illegal (under the Geneva Convention for
protection of citizens of occupied territories) settlements, restore
the Palestinian infrastructure they have been systematically
destroying, pay compensation and hand over the people who ordered the
ethnic cleansing, refugee camp massacres in Shatila and Sabra and
targeted assassination policies, to the International Criminal Court.

But they won't do any of this.

[Meteorite Debris]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:01:12 GMT the ET form known as Christopher A.
Lee<***@optonline.net> sent a radio signal across the vast expanse
of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by Peter
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.

Yes there would - perpetrated by ourselves. We put leaders we wanted
in their countries because we wanted the oil. Which they resent, so we
give the people we put there, everything they need to stay inpower. We
do things like twist their arme to allow our troops to be stationed in
Islam's Holy Land "temporarily until Hussein is kicked out of Kuwait"
- and then go back on the promise.
We (through the UN) give land in Syria and Jordan, that isn't ours to
give, to refugees from the holocaust because we were ashamed at not
doing anything about it earlier. The new occupants sieze it in advance
of the UN's timetable and we recognise the new country immediately.
The neighbouring countries understandably don't like it and go to war,
over it so we give the new country everything it needs to defend
itself and more, and they also ethnicly cleanse the previous occupants
into refugee camps where they are 55 years later.

Post by Peter
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.

I doubt it. If Israel withdraws from the occupied territories to its
original UN-mandated boundaries that should be enough. They would
however have to destroy the illegal (under the Geneva Convention for
protection of citizens of occupied territories) settlements, restore
the Palestinian infrastructure they have been systematically
destroying, pay compensation and hand over the people who ordered the
ethnic cleansing, refugee camp massacres in Shatila and Sabra and
targeted assassination policies, to the International Criminal Court.
But they won't do any of this.

It's amazing what sort of posters come out of the woodwork when an
article is cross posted to so many groups. Mostly argument by CAPS_ON.
If it's loud it must right. Depressingly that is the state of
education today.
--
To reply remove *THE_ANTI-SPAM_SHIELD*
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet -
Evil Atheist Conspiracy
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/

Shhh. Be very quiet, I'm hunting automorons. Heh heh.

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov

Fingerprint for PGP Keys at key server or go to
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
RSA - 71 BA 7C 45 B5 4A 5F EA 72 DB EC 7F 7F A8 70 99
DSS - 9217 21A9 9C3F EB0B E302 AD0E 69C5 0F06 402E 0943

[Phylter]

Post by Peter
ACTUALLY IDIOT IF WE DEPENDED ON THE ISLAMIC SAVAGES WE WOULD BE LIVING
IN THE SECOND CENTURY. YES THERE WAS A SCHOOL IN IRAQ BECAUSE THE
ISLAMIC SAVAGES AT THAT TIME THOUGHT THAT THE SATAN BOOK WAS FOR THE
ADVANCEMENT OF KNOWLEDGE. THE REASON THEY COULD AFFORD THE FINE SCHOOLS
WHERE EUROPEANS CAN SEND THEIR CHILDREN WAS THE LOOTING AND PLUNDERING
THEY DID. IN FACT IT WAS THE EUROPEANS AND ASIANS WHO MADE ALL THE
DISCOVERIES. IN FACT LIAR IT WAS THE ISLAMIC SAVAGES THAT TRIED TO
STYMIE THIS GROWTH LIKE NOT BELIEVING IN NEGATIVE NUMBERS ETC.
THAN THE ISLAMIC SAVAGES DECIDED THAT THE SATAN BOOK WAS NOT FOR
ADVANCEMENT OF KNOWLEDGE SO ALL KNOWLEDGE STOPPED IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD
WHILE IT PROCEEDED IN THE WEST.
LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING MORON EVERYTHING DISCOVERED THAN WOULD HAVE
BEEN DISCOVERED IN A FEW YEARS ANYWAY BY THE WEST.
HOWEVER THE WEST HELD ON TO THEM WHILE THE ISLAMIC SAVAGES ABANDONED
THEM THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE NOTHING NOW. ALSO MANY OF THE ADVANCEMENTS
WERE MADE BY CONVERTS TO ISLAM FORCED OR OTHERWISE.
--
Peter

Well, gee, there's no need to shout...

[Bob Dog]

Post by Meeeeaow
Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization
By Mark Glenn
It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that
the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the
world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That
's right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of
the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly
responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but
of the entire Western world in general.

When they were the leaders in gathering knowledge, it also went
hand in hand with being the most tolerant society in the world.
Equating Osama bin Laden with Omar Khayyam is like equating
Adolf Hitler with Immanuel Kant.

The writer is at best guilty of wishful thinking, more likely
ignorant of history, or worse yet a revisionist. His entire
essay is tripe.


Bob Dog

[PSn]

To say that America is a "Christian" nation (or that its culture is a
reflection of the faith of western christians) is to say that the moon is
made of cheese and you'll grow a watermelon in your stomach if you swallow
one of their seeds.

Post by Meeeeaow
Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization
By Mark Glenn
It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that
the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the
world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That
's right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of
the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly
responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but
of the entire Western world in general.
Besides the fact that Western Civilization began in the area of the Fertile
Crescent, also known as Mesopotamia (present day Iraq), it is as well an
historical fact beyond dispute that it was the learning and sophistication
of the Arab culture that led to many of the scientific developments that
would later make Europe the cradle of science, learning, and advancement.
After the institutionalization of the Islamic religion throughout the
Mediterranean region, the extent of Arab learning and culture was such that
European Kings, Christian Kings, would send their sons and daughters to be
educated in Moslem places such as Cordova and Toledo. Christian Crusaders
coming back from the Middle East told of the richness of Arab culture,
leading to Europeans' desire for Arab goods, which in turn led to trade
routes between Europe and the Middle East. The resulting wealth created from
that trade with the Arabs led to the ascendancy of power for European
city-states such as Venice and Florence, which became the birthplaces of the
Renaissance in Europe. Arab advancements in navigation, from the Astrolabe
to the compass to the fast sailing ship known as the Caravel made possible
the arrival in the New World of the Europeans. Let's not forget, Spain and
Portugal, those two powers who held a virtual monopoly on exploration in the
New World for quite a while, were, for 700 years, held by the Arabs.
What will gall Americans even more, especially those who call themselves
Christian, is the idea that it may be the Arab and Muslim culture that will
be not only the birthplace of Western Civilization, but the savior of it as
well.
As evidenced by the nightly news right now, there is a war going on.
Superficially, it is about things like "terrorism" and "freedom." There are
some who go a step further and blame oil and banking, not to mention
"lebensraum" for Israel. And while all these things do play a part, some
greater than others, the real war here is between two world views.
During the debates that took place in the UN between the internationalist
cabal led by France, Germany, Russia, Belgium, and China on one side and the
nationalists led by the United States, Great Britain, (and behind the
scenes, Israel,) there was this "tossing around" of phrases in coded
language. The nationalist crowd, represented in the debates by Colin Powell,
spoke of "Old Europe" in a castigating attempt to portray those opposing the
war against Iraq as somehow backwards in their thinking, as opposed to those
in the New World, who were enlightened and were here to save all humanity
against dangerous men and dangerous ideas. And although we know that the
reasons for the internationalist crowd opposing the war against Iraq had
little to do with anything other than protecting their own business
interests as well as staving off US hegemony in the world in favor of
internationalist hegemony, it did illustrate that there is, at least on the
part of the "coalition of the willing" a desire to do away with that ethos
held by the Old World (meaning the Middle-East) that serves as an obstacle
in building that New World Order that Bush the Elder discussed more than a
decade ago, even if it means seeing the US leading it rather than the UN.
To the "New World," and by default the New World Order, the Arab/Muslim
world is backwards in its values. It prohibits abortion and birth control.
They have large families, as opposed to the West, where the average family
has only 2 children. It prohibits usury banking, to which the West credits
its own economic superiority. Theirs is a "closed" society (read into this
no sodomy, pornography, gay lifestyle, et al) Theirs is a "cruel" society
(read into this-they do not have people on death row for 20 years) And
finally, they will not play the game the way the market wants it played,
meaning, they want a just price for their only real source of wealth, their
oil, instead of giving it away to the West for a fraction of its worth. In
other words, the picture that has just been painted here is, the Muslim
world is now what the Christian world once was and should be.
One can already hear the roar coming out of the mouths of many who have not
been thinking of this in a critical way, particularly those well-paid
mouthpieces on TV and radio masquerading themselves as Christians. "The
religion of Mohammed is better than the religion of Jesus Christ?!" No,
rather, what is meant here is that the religion of Islam resembles
Christianity more than does the Christianity of the West today, because the
Christianity of the West today isn't Christianity at all, but a watered-down
amalgamation of New Ageism mixed with certain common spiritual attributes
that, although called Christian, can be found in almost every known
religion. Through decades of destructive influence and propaganda through
media and academia, mainstream Christianity in the West has been reduced to
one remaining commandment, vague and hard to pin-point which is "be nice."
The fact of the matter is, putting aside all the other reasons surrounding
this war that were enumerated at the beginning of this essay, what exists in
the Middle East, or in The Old World, as some would call it, is a culture
that is still devoted to principles concerning basic moral values, values
that have not yet surrendered to the corrupting influence of Western media
or Western money. Within the last 50 years, every culture has fallen before
this corrupting power that seeks to enslave all men in such a way that the
individual is reduced to the value of what he produces and what he consumes,
and in pursuit of that method, the individuals behind this program have
quietly but decisively removed every obstacle in their way, be it religion,
culture, morals, tradition, or world view, through the methods of media,
academia, and finance; that is, except the culture encapsulated in the
Islamic/Arabic World.
By the description "Arabic/Islamic," it should not be understood as solely a
"Muslim" thing. The culture existing in the Arab world is held by both
Christian and Muslim alike. There are millions of Christians, who have in
essence the same culture with their Muslim counterparts in much the same way
as most Americans, regardless of religion, have the same culture. It is
those Christians and Muslims alike who reject these "modern" notions such as
abortion, birth control, sodomy, pornography, usury banking, and "market
value" of services and resources. They still view the family, the
traditional family, with all its traditional roles, as the most important
building block of their society, and they take very seriously anything that
threatens it. They recognize the value of their children, and how dangerous
the moral relativism of the West has become, threatening the stability of
society directly. They recognize that if their children and society as a
whole are subjected to ideas that promote moral decay for an extended period
of time, what will eventually and unavoidably be produced is national decay.
One should consider the fact that the New World Order has used and is using
all its resources and influence to emasculate and neutralize all opposition
to its agenda in the world. The Catholic Church, once a political power to
be feared by presidents and prime ministers the world over, has been
rendered obsolete. Through mouthpieces such as John Paul II, the New World
Order has been openly embraced, and if at times the church gets a little
rambunctious and steps out of line, well, the NWO crowd merely runs new
stories revealing allegations of pedophilia and abuse. The mainstream
Protestant groups, led by influential people on the television and radio,
may talk of the dangers of the NWO and the secularization of the West, yet
still openly embrace Bush when he pushes through various pieces of
legislation that rob us of our freedoms under the guise of protection from
terrorism, as well as the practice of conveniently "forgetting" about Bush's
caving in to the pro-abortion lobby in various instances. So, with the
exception of a few pockets of token resistance, there is no one left
standing in the way of the NWO except the Arab/Muslim World.
If by some miracle the Arab/Muslim world is victorious against this
onslaught, and the secular/atheistic influence of the NWO agenda is reduced
to such a level as to allow the Christian West to regain its foothold where
it once stood, it will be necessary to credit the religion of Islam and the
Arab world for not buckling under in the face of extermination. And it will
be we, the Christian West and Western Civilization, who will be the
beneficiaries of "Islamic Extremism."
Mark Glenn is an American and former high school teacher turned writer /
commentator. He contributed above article to Media Monitors Network (MMN).

[Orhan Orgun]

Post by Meeeeaow
Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization
By Mark Glenn
It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that
the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the
world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That
's right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of
the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly
responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but
of the entire Western world in general.

This American is perfectly aware of the Arab (and Persian)
contributions to science and philosophy, and of the fact that Middle
Age Christian fanatics would have destroyed much of what we have
inherited from the ancient Greek and Roman civilizations had the Arabs
not preserved it and smuggled it, as it were, thru the back door into
Europe.

However, this American fails to see how the crap in the rest of the
article follows from this fact.

[Meteorite Debris]

On 17 Nov 2003 10:45:06 -0800 the ET form known as Orhan
Orgun<***@sbcglobal.net> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.

Post by Orhan Orgun
This American is perfectly aware of the Arab (and Persian)
contributions to science and philosophy, and of the fact that Middle
Age Christian fanatics would have destroyed much of what we have
inherited from the ancient Greek and Roman civilizations had the Arabs
not preserved it and smuggled it, as it were, thru the back door into
Europe.
However, this American fails to see how the crap in the rest of the
article follows from this fact.

There is one way in which the Islamic lands led to America becoming
what it is today. The search for a western trading route from Europe
to India and the Spice Islands (Indonesia) that bypassed the Islamic
middle men through which spices and other treasures passed and were
marked up. An obstacle that inspired Diaz and Vasco de Gama to voyage
and led Columbus to make the European discovery of the Americas.

A good "what if" would be what if no Islam and Islamic middle men on
trading routes to the east; what effect on ocean going exploration.

The original author vaguely makes the point that xianity used to
resemble fundy Islam in its' madness and extremism but so too did
ancient Israel. Nothing is closer to old testament justice than the
Taliban legal code in Afghanistan. but he sees this as a more
"authentic" xianity. It may be but it's also pretty scary. Remind me
to keep a 100 miles away from an "authentic" xian.
--
To reply remove *THE_ANTI-SPAM_SHIELD*
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet -
Evil Atheist Conspiracy
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/

Shhh. Be very quiet, I'm hunting automorons. Heh heh.

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov

Fingerprint for PGP Keys at key server or go to
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
RSA - 71 BA 7C 45 B5 4A 5F EA 72 DB EC 7F 7F A8 70 99
DSS - 9217 21A9 9C3F EB0B E302 AD0E 69C5 0F06 402E 0943

[James A. Donald]

--
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:41:39 +0500, "Meeeeaow"

Post by Meeeeaow
Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization
Besides the fact that Western Civilization began in the area of
the Fertile Crescent, also known as Mesopotamia (present day
Iraq),

Western civilization began in Greece, not Mesopotamia. Rome fell
shortly after it became Christian. The west began to rise again
under the leadership of the feudal lords. Then in 1277--1300,
the church gained dominance over secular authorities, whereupon
western civilization stagnated in technology, and began to lose
militarily to outsiders, in particular the Muslims. Then, in the
1600s, kings and burghers got the upper hand over bishops,
secular intellectuals got the upper hand over clerical
intellectuals, and the west began to rise again, defeating the
Muslims, who have been retreating ever since, and swiftly
increasing its lead in intellectual achievement, art, science,
and wealth.

Post by Meeeeaow
it is as well an
historical fact beyond dispute that it was the learning and
sophistication of the Arab culture that led to many of the
scientific developments that would later make Europe the cradle
of science, learning, and advancement.

Your evasive words are a roundabout way of saying that the west
stole the Greek books from the arabs, that the arabs had stolen
from the Alexandrine Greeks. The big difference that ensued
however, was that the west actually read and understood those
books.

The arabs always have been backward compared to the west. In at
least one case, Mohammed ordered every male of a defeated group
put to death. The crusades consisted of battles between hordes
of arabs, and relatively small groups of crusaders equipped with
far superior technology, resembling recent battles between
westerners and arabs.

Between 1300 and 1600, the west stagnated due to theocratic
domination, and the Muslims reached Vienna, but since then, it
has been back to business as usual.

Arabs are backward. Always have been. They need to learn from
their betters. The longer they resist this, the more they will
get their asses kicked.

--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
tQBm5xnANnAd9XhAjYJ4p0DBl+Alq1hoFjiJ+jMh
49nb2uAmacvZNQwcFgUWJ1nAZtjmYm/N8pHxfWZzd

[Gabrielle Rapagnetta]

Post by James A. Donald
The arabs always have been backward compared to the west. In at
least one case, Mohammed ordered every male of a defeated group
put to death. The crusades consisted of battles between hordes
of arabs, and relatively small groups of crusaders equipped with
far superior technology, resembling recent battles between
westerners and arabs.

How could you possibly consider anyone "backward" in comparison to the
crusaders, the violent, religious fanatics who abandoned their
famine-stricken countries on the orders of a bigoted pope and who
traveled thousands of miles for no real military purpose, slaughtering
jews all along the way?

What could possibly be more backward than that?

[Al Klein]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 12:20:42 -0800, Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by James A. Donald
The arabs always have been backward compared to the west. In at
least one case, Mohammed ordered every male of a defeated group
put to death. The crusades consisted of battles between hordes
of arabs, and relatively small groups of crusaders equipped with
far superior technology, resembling recent battles between
westerners and arabs.

How could you possibly consider anyone "backward" in comparison to the
crusaders, the violent, religious fanatics who abandoned their
famine-stricken countries on the orders of a bigoted pope and who
traveled thousands of miles for no real military purpose, slaughtering
jews all along the way?
What could possibly be more backward than that?

Technologically backward, as anyone who wasn't technologically
backward would have realized.

[Gabrielle Rapagnetta]

Post by Al Klein
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by James A. Donald
The arabs always have been backward compared to the west. In at
least one case, Mohammed ordered every male of a defeated group
put to death. The crusades consisted of battles between hordes
of arabs, and relatively small groups of crusaders equipped with
far superior technology, resembling recent battles between
westerners and arabs.

How could you possibly consider anyone "backward" in comparison to the
crusaders, the violent, religious fanatics who abandoned their
famine-stricken countries on the orders of a bigoted pope and who
traveled thousands of miles for no real military purpose, slaughtering
jews all along the way?
What could possibly be more backward than that?

Technologically backward, as anyone who wasn't technologically
backward would have realized.

Who was technologically backward?

The guys who didn't even know what year their savior was born because
they had badly botched their calendar and couldn't figure out leap
years?

Or the guys who invented the numbering system still used as the
"language of science" in the 21st century?

[zztop8970]

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Al Klein
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by James A. Donald
The arabs always have been backward compared to the west. In at
least one case, Mohammed ordered every male of a defeated group
put to death. The crusades consisted of battles between hordes
of arabs, and relatively small groups of crusaders equipped with
far superior technology, resembling recent battles between
westerners and arabs.

How could you possibly consider anyone "backward" in comparison to the
crusaders, the violent, religious fanatics who abandoned their
famine-stricken countries on the orders of a bigoted pope and who
traveled thousands of miles for no real military purpose, slaughtering
jews all along the way?
What could possibly be more backward than that?

Technologically backward, as anyone who wasn't technologically
backward would have realized.

Who was technologically backward?
The guys who didn't even know what year their savior was born because
they had badly botched their calendar and couldn't figure out leap
years?
Or the guys who invented the numbering system still used as the
"language of science" in the 21st century?

That would be the Hindus, not Arabs, you ignormus.

[Al Klein]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:09:24 -0800, Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
Who was technologically backward?
The guys who didn't even know what year their savior was born because
they had badly botched their calendar and couldn't figure out leap
years?

The Gregorian calendar wasn't even invented until LONG after Saul made
Jesus up.

[Gabrielle Rapagnetta]

Post by Al Klein
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
Who was technologically backward?
The guys who didn't even know what year their savior was born because
they had badly botched their calendar and couldn't figure out leap
years?

The Gregorian calendar wasn't even invented until LONG after Saul made
Jesus up.

The Gregorian calendar was not an invention. It was a correction --
and still not quite right.

(And Jesus made Saul up. Blah)

[Al Klein]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:50:39 -0800, Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Al Klein
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
Who was technologically backward?
The guys who didn't even know what year their savior was born because
they had badly botched their calendar and couldn't figure out leap
years?

The Gregorian calendar wasn't even invented until LONG after Saul made
Jesus up.

The Gregorian calendar was not an invention. It was a correction --
and still not quite right.

The Romans invented the calendar in effect at the time. Jesus wasn't
the savior of the Romans of the first century. The date of Jesus'
birth was set more than 1,000 years later - there's no historical
record of the date of either his birth or his death (or of his
existence).

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
(And Jesus made Saul up. Blah)

A character in a book made the author up?

[Gabrielle Rapagnetta]

Post by Al Klein
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Al Klein
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
Who was technologically backward?
The guys who didn't even know what year their savior was born because
they had badly botched their calendar and couldn't figure out leap
years?

The Gregorian calendar wasn't even invented until LONG after Saul made
Jesus up.

The Gregorian calendar was not an invention. It was a correction --
and still not quite right.

The Romans invented the calendar in effect at the time. Jesus wasn't
the savior of the Romans of the first century. The date of Jesus'
birth was set more than 1,000 years later - there's no historical
record of the date of either his birth or his death (or of his
existence).

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
(And Jesus made Saul up. Blah)

A character in a book made the author up?

If you weren't such an argumentative atheist looking for an easy fight
[rhetorical sic] you would realize that you are sticking up for the
Christians right now.

[Al Klein]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:30:40 -0800, Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Al Klein
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
(And Jesus made Saul up. Blah)

A character in a book made the author up?

If you weren't such an argumentative atheist looking for an easy fight
[rhetorical sic] you would realize that you are sticking up for the
Christians right now.

How would that be? It's Christian doctrine that Saul invented Jesus?

[James A. Donald]

--
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
Who was technologically backward?
The guys who didn't even know what year their savior was born
because they had badly botched their calendar and couldn't
figure out leap years?
Or the guys who invented the numbering system still used as the
"language of science" in the 21st century?

The guys who invented the numbering system were the hindus.
They also invented "damascus steel". The crusaders were very
impressed by damascus steel, but at the time of the crusades, the
Indian civilization had long been in decline, with the result
that those very impressive muslim steel blades were for the most
part antiques, family heirlooms possessed by a few nobles.

All the possessions of the arabs that impressed the crusaders,
was old stuff, looted or purchased from superior civilizations,
civilizations that had vanished or were in severe decline. The
crusaders had more steel, because they had developed better ways
of making steel, not because they had pillaged good stuff from
the ancients. The arabs had small amounts of better steel, but
they could not make it.

Similarly, as soon as the west acquired ancient greek books from
the arabs, they promptly began improving on the knowledge in
those books, which the arabs had not done.

--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
H5SnLMFmqRE8V8xPgtkyntS3+w7CeYPb4IAkaD+r
4iN39haUAepaZ49b0G9p16DWRsvn0yy6Hnd3AnRU4

[Gabrielle Rapagnetta]

Post by Al Klein
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
Who was technologically backward?
The guys who didn't even know what year their savior was born
because they had badly botched their calendar and couldn't
figure out leap years?
Or the guys who invented the numbering system still used as the
"language of science" in the 21st century?

The guys who invented the numbering system were the hindus.
They also invented "damascus steel". The crusaders were very
impressed by damascus steel, but at the time of the crusades, the
Indian civilization had long been in decline, with the result
that those very impressive muslim steel blades were for the most
part antiques, family heirlooms possessed by a few nobles.
All the possessions of the arabs that impressed the crusaders,
was old stuff, looted or purchased from superior civilizations,
civilizations that had vanished or were in severe decline. The
crusaders had more steel, because they had developed better ways
of making steel, not because they had pillaged good stuff from
the ancients. The arabs had small amounts of better steel, but
they could not make it.
Similarly, as soon as the west acquired ancient greek books from
the arabs, they promptly began improving on the knowledge in
those books, which the arabs had not done.

Ah, I see -- Arabs "loot" and Christians "acquire".

And "improving on the knowledge in those books" must be a euphemism
for burning down libraries; the Palestine Library, the Tripoli
Library, two million Muslim manuscripts in Granada.

The Western/Christian quest for knowledge is best summed up by Pope
Gregory: "Ignorance is the mother of piety."

As you have aptly demonstrated, those words still hold true today.

So...uh, who you gonna vote for in MMIV?

[William Barwell]

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Al Klein
Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
Who was technologically backward?
The guys who didn't even know what year their savior was born
because they had badly botched their calendar and couldn't
figure out leap years?
Or the guys who invented the numbering system still used as the
"language of science" in the 21st century?

The guys who invented the numbering system were the hindus.
They also invented "damascus steel". The crusaders were very
impressed by damascus steel, but at the time of the crusades, the
Indian civilization had long been in decline, with the result
that those very impressive muslim steel blades were for the most
part antiques, family heirlooms possessed by a few nobles.
All the possessions of the arabs that impressed the crusaders,
was old stuff, looted or purchased from superior civilizations,
civilizations that had vanished or were in severe decline. The
crusaders had more steel, because they had developed better ways
of making steel, not because they had pillaged good stuff from
the ancients. The arabs had small amounts of better steel, but
they could not make it.
Similarly, as soon as the west acquired ancient greek books from
the arabs, they promptly began improving on the knowledge in
those books, which the arabs had not done.

Ah, I see -- Arabs "loot" and Christians "acquire".

Yes, if you reazd the history of Islam, you will see it was essentially a
looter's religion, a pirate's religion. In the Quran, 1/5 of all loot is to
be set aside for the prophet Mohammed and his family and orphans.
Looting and slavery were the Islamic way until the Ottoman empire
fell.

As for steel in India, India for centuries was the source of steel, it was
their major import. Not until the English managed to make crucible steel
were better steels available. For a milenia, all good steel implements
from swords to knifes had its start in the steel foundries of India.
Only Norse smiths equalled that quality.

Islam did produce good doctors, but often was weak on other
things, Islamic thinkers defineitely had a good grasp on optical theory,
but it was the West that in the 12th century invented reading glasses.

Most of the greatest thinkers in Islamic lands were not very Islamic, many
were all but athieists and there were more than a few atheists too. This
was a big problem for scruffy mullah types, but it took until the 13th
century for the mullahs to bring philosophy (which included science or
natural philosphy as it was deemed) to heel. Independent critical thinking
was destroyed, the Quran beecame the touchstone for all human though and
what was acceptable thinking and what was not.

Science and philosphy was destroyed.

After the 13th century, nothing much notable came out of Islamic lands,
excerpt Turkish military tactics. We find no more notable or important
philosphers, little medicine, medical progress passed to the West with
people like Paraclesus and Pare, father of modern surgery. We find
no important technologies, no important anything really.
Nothing major. Nothing earth shattering. Nothing that changed the world.

So Islam went to sleep and slept on until Napolean kicked the doors in in
Egypt 4 centuries later shortly after the Ottoman Turks were defeated at
gates of Vienna and started their long descent into defeat and world
irrelevance.

During all this time, Islam was looting the world, the Turks in the
Balkans, Hungary, Poland, the Moghuls in India, the Algerians
and Triplitanians in the Mediterranian, Arabian slavers in Africa,
loot, kill, enslave, loot, kill, enslave. That's all there was.
Maybe the occasional rug got woven, or somebody managed
to grow some dates.

That is all they did. Nothing else. Nothing.
If you can think of anything Islam did good since the 13th century, that
matterered to the world at large, let me know.
The West went on to develop almost all modern science, technology,
medicine, philosophy, literature, all that matters. Islam, well, it looted
all it could until Islamic 'civilization' itself became colonies of its
betters. Too bad the West didn't do a better job of it.

Islam today blames the West for its predicament, but Islam and the Mullahs
of the 13th century that turned Islamic civilization into an obscurantist
theocracy are to blame. And Islamic civilization will be nothing but a
dust bowl land of flies and mullahs until they stop being a mullah ridden
theocracy.

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
And "improving on the knowledge in those books" must be a euphemism
for burning down libraries; the Palestine Library, the Tripoli
Library, two million Muslim manuscripts in Granada.
The Western/Christian quest for knowledge is best summed up by Pope
Gregory: "Ignorance is the mother of piety."
As you have aptly demonstrated, those words still hold true today.
So...uh, who you gonna vote for in MMIV?

[Gabrielle Rapagnetta]

Post by William Barwell

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta

Post by James A. Donald
All the possessions of the arabs that impressed the crusaders,
was old stuff, looted or purchased from superior civilizations,
civilizations that had vanished or were in severe decline. The
crusaders had more steel, because they had developed better ways
of making steel, not because they had pillaged good stuff from
the ancients. The arabs had small amounts of better steel, but
they could not make it.
Similarly, as soon as the west acquired ancient greek books from
the arabs, they promptly began improving on the knowledge in
those books, which the arabs had not done.

Ah, I see -- Arabs "loot" and Christians "acquire".

Yes, if you reazd the history of Islam, you will see it was essentially a
looter's religion, a pirate's religion. In the Quran, 1/5 of all loot is to
be set aside for the prophet Mohammed and his family and orphans.
Looting and slavery were the Islamic way until the Ottoman empire
fell.

That is probably a small fraction of what goes to the Catholic Church,
the world's largest land owner. But that land was "acquired", right?

In fundamentalist Christianity two entire continents were looted and
pirated under the guise of religion. It is ridiculous to suggest that
Mohammed's descendants stole more than their Catholic counterparts.

Post by William Barwell
Islam did produce good doctors, but often was weak on other
things, Islamic thinkers defineitely had a good grasp on optical theory,
but it was the West that in the 12th century invented reading glasses.
Most of the greatest thinkers in Islamic lands were not very Islamic, many
were all but athieists and there were more than a few atheists too. This
was a big problem for scruffy mullah types, but it took until the 13th
century for the mullahs to bring philosophy (which included science or
natural philosphy as it was deemed) to heel. Independent critical thinking
was destroyed, the Quran beecame the touchstone for all human though and
what was acceptable thinking and what was not.

True for Christians as well. The most enlightened times of Western
culture was when the Church was doubted. We could attribute the
West's scientific advancements to quasi-atheist types, too.

Post by William Barwell
Science and philosphy was destroyed.

Partly by the Christians who subsequently found their own homelands
mired in theocracy for a few centuries as well.

Post by William Barwell
After the 13th century, nothing much notable came out of Islamic lands,
excerpt Turkish military tactics. We find no more notable or important
philosphers, little medicine, medical progress passed to the West with
people like Paraclesus and Pare, father of modern surgery. We find
no important technologies, no important anything really.
Nothing major. Nothing earth shattering. Nothing that changed the world.
So Islam went to sleep and slept on until Napolean kicked the doors in in
Egypt 4 centuries later shortly after the Ottoman Turks were defeated at
gates of Vienna and started their long descent into defeat and world
irrelevance.
During all this time, Islam was looting the world, the Turks in the
Balkans, Hungary, Poland, the Moghuls in India, the Algerians
and Triplitanians in the Mediterranian, Arabian slavers in Africa,
loot, kill, enslave, loot, kill, enslave. That's all there was.
Maybe the occasional rug got woven, or somebody managed
to grow some dates.
That is all they did. Nothing else. Nothing.
If you can think of anything Islam did good since the 13th century, that
matterered to the world at large, let me know.

The Taj Mahal.

Have you noticed that you have shifted the discussion from Arabs and
Christian Crusaders to Islamists and the West? Along those same lines
I could ask you to name one thing that the Catholic Church has done
for the world at large since the 13th century -- an equally ridiculous
question.

Post by William Barwell
The West went on to develop almost all modern science, technology,
medicine, philosophy, literature, all that matters. Islam, well, it looted
all it could until Islamic 'civilization' itself became colonies of its
betters. Too bad the West didn't do a better job of it.
Islam today blames the West for its predicament, but Islam and the Mullahs
of the 13th century that turned Islamic civilization into an obscurantist
theocracy are to blame. And Islamic civilization will be nothing but a
dust bowl land of flies and mullahs until they stop being a mullah ridden
theocracy.

Okay. Let me see if I've got this straight. Islam went into decline
due to an uprising of fundamentalism which occurred at precisely the
same time the West had decided that Muslims were worthless, irrelevant
occupants of a dust bowl land of flies.

Fast forward an entire millennium and neither the West nor Islam has
learned a goddamn thing. When are you going to learn that calling an
entire civilization, culture, religion, and 1.8 billion people
"irrelevant" has entirely predictable consequences. You've had a
thousand years to figure this out. What's your excuse?!

The West is every bit as fundamentalist as Islam, if not more. The
scientific achievements you attribute to racial factors are rather the
result of freedom and education -- traits which the West often
suppresses in Islamic countries.

It was the West who overthrew a democratically elected leader in Iran.
The predictable result? It has been a fundamentalist theocracy ever
since.

It was the West who drew up the borders for Iraq, awarding the country
a pathetic 50 mile coastline. Predictable results.

It was the West who drew up the Israeli borders, resulting in the
denial of citizenship to Palestinians. Predictable results.

Islam may be backwards, but so are you Western fanatic, modern-day
crusaders. The state of Islam is not irrelevant: It is your
backwards creation. The sooner you own up to that the less I will
have to fear hijacked planes and embassy bombings.

[Mike Craney]

Post by Gabrielle Rapagnetta
Islam may be backwards, but so are you Western fanatic, modern-day
crusaders. The state of Islam is not irrelevant: It is your
backwards creation. The sooner you own up to that the less I will
have to fear hijacked planes and embassy bombings.

So, Islam is just creation trying to balance the equation? (I'm assuming
you've seen the Matrix Revolutions, here. Anyone who has will catch the
analogy.)

Mike