Discussion:
Judaism never says 1+1=1, but Xianity *does* say 1+1+1 = 1
(too old to reply)
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-15 18:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-15 21:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-15 23:45:55 UTC
Permalink
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.

Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.

After all, if you don't have a handle on...

"where did we come from and who created the world?"

...you're not going to survive long in the priest business.

You'd need to be pretty clueless not to see that straight off.
And if you weren't so ignorant you
would understand that when G-d created
those things, time had not been created yet...
Time is a measure of change. If there is no change, then time has not
passed. Given that Genesis is a myth, but accepting its internal limits
for a second, its obvious that for God to have "done" anything, he must
have done so "in time".

Can you point out when "time" is stated to occur in Genesis? I don't
think its stated per se, but my recollection might be faulty. Not stated,
it is therefore assumed, since all things must occur "in" time for them
to be "real" to us, the inside of black holes notwithstanding.
But you refuse to study the following
Well, actually Riain, all you need to study to understand Genesis is how
to read. Its pretty straightforward on its most basic level, like a lot
of Old Testament Stuff. It was designed to instruct the semi-literate, so
verbal jousting is at a minimum.

The rebuttal to your assertion that "time had not been created yet" is
partly the logical understanding of the verb "to do" in the paragraph
above, but the clincher is the language or Genesis itself:

Seven "days" describes a measure of time.

Seven "days" is the basis for Genesis and the primary invocation to keep
holy the Sabbath day, a day of rest.

How could you, with all your education, miss that? That's the difference
between being well read and being educated in a nutshell by the way.

The well-read man speaks of other people's knowledge.

The educated man speaks from his own knowledge.

Less waffly off-the-point quotations Riain, and more thinking, succinctly
expressed, if you please.
Philosophy, Logic, Physics, Metaphysics,
Biblical Archaeology, and Biblical
Anthropology... Just for starters!
Education and myths are their own flip sides. Logos and Mythos.

You cannot explain one by the other except symbolically.

Surely an educated man like you knows that Riain.

<snip>

M.
L Perez
2004-07-16 01:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead" nor do I look at the OT as a
"myth"
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-16 01:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners it isn't very convincing to me.

But you intrigue me. I have to related sets of questions:

#1.

How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?

Is it that you don't understand the term?

Or do you define your worship in another way?

#2.

The original message from "moshe" <***@hotmail.com> in news:***@posting.google.com

referred to Genesis.

The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in

Message-ID <7SCJc.4202$***@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.

How could you have missed this?

In closing I note, FWIW:

The OT as a whole contains revelations but also many practical pieces of
advice on how to live a righteous life under certain circumstances and in
certain kinds of environments. Desert, or dryland habitations
perticularly. Not very suitable for where I live [Ireland], but moral
inferences may still be drawn nonetheless.

M.
L Perez
2004-07-16 07:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners it isn't very convincing to me.
#1.
How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?
there is no godhead, only the Father YHVH, the Son Jesus and their power to
manipulate the laws of physics, the holy spirit. Two seperate beings and
their invisible power, no "godhead"
please learn
John 17:3-5
John 20:17
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
Post by Michael O'Neill
referred to Genesis.
The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in
My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.
How could you have missed this?
Genesis is not a myth either.
Post by Michael O'Neill
The OT as a whole contains revelations but also many practical pieces of
advice on how to live a righteous life under certain circumstances and in
certain kinds of environments. Desert, or dryland habitations
perticularly. Not very suitable for where I live [Ireland], but moral
inferences may still be drawn nonetheless.
M.
living in a desert or a rain forest or a space ship does not exempt anyone
from doing God's will, learn Matthew 7:21
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-16 10:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth,
a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking
for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are
but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners
it isn't very convincing to me.
#1.
How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?
there is no godhead, only the Father
YHVH, the Son Jesus and their power to
manipulate the laws of physics, the holy spirit.
Two seperate beings and
their invisible power, no "godhead"
please learn
John 17:3-5
John 20:17
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
<shakes head>

Why does every guy with a point to make assume learning is the key to
right practise and right belief where religion is concerned?

But to your question.

I was raised to respect the Trinity as the Godhead, so perhaps we're
talking semantics here.

The Blessed Trinity is defined as being conposed of three devine persons
in the one God in my cathechism.

Its one of the Mysteries.

What does yours say?
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
referred to Genesis.
The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in
My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.
How could you have missed this?
Genesis is not a myth either.
Its a creation myth.

Ask the pope if you don't believe me.
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
The OT as a whole contains revelations
but also many practical pieces of
advice on how to live a righteous
life under certain circumstances and in
certain kinds of environments. Desert,
or dryland habitations
perticularly. Not very suitable for
where I live [Ireland], but moral
inferences may still be drawn nonetheless.
M.
living in a desert or a rain forest or
a space ship does not exempt anyone
from doing God's will, learn Matthew 7:21
We all approach God in our own way, unless you're one of the ilk who
condemns all dead children to purgatory because Preacher Man didn't get
to their parents in time.

That level of belief is pure hypocrisy of the "My God is the Only God"
sort and has little or nothing of humanity in it.

Wait, don't tell me, you regard the body as "sinful" too, I suppose?

M.
b***@yahoo.com
2004-07-16 19:00:16 UTC
Permalink
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved."

-- Acts 4:10-12
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-16 20:40:22 UTC
Permalink
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/falseprophets.html

FALSE PROPHETS

Hugh Fogelman et al



The writings of Paul in the Nu TESTament consistently claims that it was God
himself who called him to be an apostle.

“The will and call of God” led him to preach, (1 Corinthians 1:1)

He is “approved by God,” (1 Thessalonians 2:4)

God qualified Paul to dispense his new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6)

God’s actions made him an apostle to the gentiles, (Galatians 2:8)

As for Paul’s knowledge of the so-called Christ, he also claims that it was
God who revealed his son Jesus to him. (Galatians 1:16) Therefore, it was
not Jesus who first revealed himself to Paul. How did Paul forget Jesus?

Even the pseudo-Pauline writers express things in the same vein. It is the
“commission God gave me.” (Colossians 1:25) Paul is commissioned “by the
will of God” (Ephesians 1:1) and is “made a minister by God’s gifts and
powers.”(Ephesians 3:7) These passages show that the authors apparently did
not have any concept that Jesus had called or appointed apostles, whether on
earth or even through spiritual channels. In fact, Paul clearly excludes
such an idea: “In the church, God has appointed in the first place apostles
. . .” (1 Corinthians 12:28). No writer who knew of the Gospel would have
said such a thing.

Paul, in his autobiography wrote, through the channel of God’s Spirit. “Did
the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people to whom it
came? If anyone claims to be inspired or a prophet, let him recognize that
what I write has the Lord’s authority.” [1 Corinthians 14:36-38]

Paul also preached about another god. He wrote on behalf of the false
prophet Jesus, who had advocated fear of a false god―the Christian devil.
Paul wrote that Satan (the devil) is “god” of THIS world (2 Corinthians
4:4). Paul writes that God, the Creator of ALL, battles against the rulers
and the powers of this dark word (Ephesians 6:12). He continues, saying
that Satan has his own will (Timothy 2:26). In Acts, Paul said he was told
to open peoples’ eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the
POWER of Satan (Acts 26:18).

Peter continued the myth of Jesus, the false prophet, when in his address of
Pentecost as told in Acts 2:22: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words. Jesus
of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and
signs which God did by him to show midst of you, as ye yourselves also
know.”

What does God say about all this? “If there should stand up in your midst a
prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a
wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you
saying, Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall
worship them, do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer
of a dream – for HaShem, your God is testing you to know whether you love
HaShem, your God.” (Deuteronomy 13:2-4)

“But the prophet who willfully shall speak a word in My name, that which I
have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of the gods
of others―that prophet shall die.”

In other words, anyone who speaks a word in God's name, which God did not
say, is a false prophet. Simple and direct! (Deuteronomy 18:20)

God was very clear on miracles, wonders and signs as he specified in
Deuteronomy 13:1-6.

You should carefully observe the entire word that I am commanding you. Do
not add to it and do not subtract from it. If there should arise amongst you
a prophet or a visionary, he may present you with a sign or miracle, and on
the basis of that sign or miracle, say to you, "Let us try out a different
god. Let us serve it and have a new spiritual experience."

Do not listen to the words of that prophet or visionary. God is testing you
to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your
soul. Follow the Lord your God, remain in awe of Him, keep His mitzvahs,
listen to Him and serve Him – and then you will be able to have a true
spiritual experience through Him.

Therefore, if any person―whether Jew or non-Jew―will perform signs and
wonders, saying that God sent him to either add or subtract a mitzvah from
the Torah, or explain it differently than the tradition from Moses, or claim
that the mitzvahs were given to Israel for only a limited time and not for
all generations―then we immediately know he is a false prophet.

Don’t you find it strange that Paul, Peter, and especially Jesus died
“EARLY” deaths?

Don’t you think that maybe they failed the test?

Were Paul and Jesus false prophets? You know it!




<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
L Perez
2004-07-17 08:08:46 UTC
Permalink
please sir,
Christ is the mediator between God and mankind, whatever Christ says is what
YHVH told him to say. In this way Paul was commissioned by God because
Christ does the will of YHVH
Post by Riain Y. Barton
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/falseprophets.html
FALSE PROPHETS
Hugh Fogelman et al
The writings of Paul in the Nu TESTament consistently claims that it was God
himself who called him to be an apostle.
"The will and call of God" led him to preach, (1 Corinthians 1:1)
He is "approved by God," (1 Thessalonians 2:4)
God qualified Paul to dispense his new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6)
God's actions made him an apostle to the gentiles, (Galatians 2:8)
As for Paul's knowledge of the so-called Christ, he also claims that it
was
Post by Riain Y. Barton
God who revealed his son Jesus to him. (Galatians 1:16) Therefore, it was
not Jesus who first revealed himself to Paul. How did Paul forget Jesus?
Even the pseudo-Pauline writers express things in the same vein. It is the
"commission God gave me." (Colossians 1:25) Paul is commissioned "by the
will of God" (Ephesians 1:1) and is "made a minister by God's gifts and
powers."(Ephesians 3:7) These passages show that the authors apparently
did
Post by Riain Y. Barton
not have any concept that Jesus had called or appointed apostles, whether on
earth or even through spiritual channels. In fact, Paul clearly excludes
such an idea: "In the church, God has appointed in the first place
apostles
Post by Riain Y. Barton
. . ." (1 Corinthians 12:28). No writer who knew of the Gospel would have
said such a thing.
Paul, in his autobiography wrote, through the channel of God's Spirit.
"Did
Post by Riain Y. Barton
the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people to whom it
came? If anyone claims to be inspired or a prophet, let him recognize that
what I write has the Lord's authority." [1 Corinthians 14:36-38]
Paul also preached about another god. He wrote on behalf of the false
prophet Jesus, who had advocated fear of a false god?the Christian devil.
Paul wrote that Satan (the devil) is "god" of THIS world (2 Corinthians
4:4). Paul writes that God, the Creator of ALL, battles against the rulers
and the powers of this dark word (Ephesians 6:12). He continues, saying
that Satan has his own will (Timothy 2:26). In Acts, Paul said he was told
to open peoples' eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the
POWER of Satan (Acts 26:18).
Peter continued the myth of Jesus, the false prophet, when in his address of
Pentecost as told in Acts 2:22: "Ye men of Israel, hear these words. Jesus
of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and
signs which God did by him to show midst of you, as ye yourselves also
know."
What does God say about all this? "If there should stand up in your midst
a
Post by Riain Y. Barton
prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a
wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you
saying, Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall
worship them, do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer
of a dream - for HaShem, your God is testing you to know whether you love
HaShem, your God." (Deuteronomy 13:2-4)
"But the prophet who willfully shall speak a word in My name, that which
I
Post by Riain Y. Barton
have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of the gods
of others?that prophet shall die."
In other words, anyone who speaks a word in God's name, which God did not
say, is a false prophet. Simple and direct! (Deuteronomy 18:20)
God was very clear on miracles, wonders and signs as he specified in
Deuteronomy 13:1-6.
You should carefully observe the entire word that I am commanding you. Do
not add to it and do not subtract from it. If there should arise amongst you
a prophet or a visionary, he may present you with a sign or miracle, and on
the basis of that sign or miracle, say to you, "Let us try out a different
god. Let us serve it and have a new spiritual experience."
Do not listen to the words of that prophet or visionary. God is testing you
to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your
soul. Follow the Lord your God, remain in awe of Him, keep His mitzvahs,
listen to Him and serve Him - and then you will be able to have a true
spiritual experience through Him.
Therefore, if any person?whether Jew or non-Jew?will perform signs and
wonders, saying that God sent him to either add or subtract a mitzvah from
the Torah, or explain it differently than the tradition from Moses, or claim
that the mitzvahs were given to Israel for only a limited time and not for
all generations?then we immediately know he is a false prophet.
Don't you find it strange that Paul, Peter, and especially Jesus died
"EARLY" deaths?
Don't you think that maybe they failed the test?
Were Paul and Jesus false prophets? You know it!
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
Jan Pompe
2004-07-17 09:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
please sir,
Christ is the mediator between God and mankind, whatever Christ says is what
YHVH told him to say. In this way Paul was commissioned by God because
Christ does the will of YHVH
Wot nonsense Paul did not fulfil the conditions that make a prophet as
outlined in Deuterony 13 and 18.

Sorry to disappoint you.
psalmsmith
2004-07-17 08:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Pompe
Post by L Perez
please sir,
Christ is the mediator between God and mankind, whatever Christ says is what
YHVH told him to say. In this way Paul was commissioned by God because
Christ does the will of YHVH
Wot nonsense Paul did not fulfil the conditions that make a prophet as
outlined in Deuterony 13 and 18.
Sorry to disappoint you.
What sort of qualifications does it take to be a witness?
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-17 09:36:04 UTC
Permalink
L Perez
2004-07-17 10:53:12 UTC
Permalink
No you are wrong, very wrong! I am so sorry that you have not been
educated
and that you are in the dark.
of course, why didn't I think of that
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-29 14:50:07 UTC
Permalink
No you are wrong, very wrong! I
am so sorry that you have not been educated
and that you are in the dark.
I didn't see you come back wit ha scintallating response to my reply.

M.

Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-16 20:40:55 UTC
Permalink
L Perez
2004-07-17 08:11:15 UTC
Permalink
I understand why practising homosexuals, feminists and unrepentant sinners
hate Paul and wish to remove his writings from the NT but why is it that you
hate him so?
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/pauladmitstolyingfraud.html
PAUL ADMITS TO LYING & FRAUD
Paul, in his zealot exaltation, admits and justifies, on Jesuitical
principles, the preaching of falsehood, and feels really aggrieved that
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory;
why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)
In a spirit of good-humored naiveté he winks at the flock of Corinthians
"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it
... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor.
12.15-16)
As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to
the
"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the
Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under
the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To
them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are
without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all
means
save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).
And he admits to the church of Corinth: "I robbed other churches ... to do
you service" (2 Cor. 11.8).
What did the church tell you to secure your commitment to Christianity?
Was
your preacher, minister or priest like Paul?
Did Jesus teach to lie and steal?
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
Jan Pompe
2004-07-17 09:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
I understand why practising homosexuals, feminists and unrepentant sinners
hate Paul and wish to remove his writings from the NT but why is it that you
hate him so?
What a question the post is quite self explanatory Paul was a mountebank.
Post by L Perez
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/pauladmitstolyingfraud.html
PAUL ADMITS TO LYING & FRAUD
Paul, in his zealot exaltation, admits and justifies, on Jesuitical
principles, the preaching of falsehood, and feels really aggrieved that
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory;
why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)
In a spirit of good-humored naiveté he winks at the flock of Corinthians
"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it
... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor.
12.15-16)
As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to
the
"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the
Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under
the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To
them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are
without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all
means
save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).
And he admits to the church of Corinth: "I robbed other churches ... to do
you service" (2 Cor. 11.8).
What did the church tell you to secure your commitment to Christianity?
Was
your preacher, minister or priest like Paul?
Did Jesus teach to lie and steal?
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-17 09:34:56 UTC
Permalink
L Perez
2004-07-17 10:55:13 UTC
Permalink
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
I am JEWISH.
hmm... so you hate Paul because he left the Pharisees and followed the
Messiah...
you think the Pharisees were right?
Patricia Heil
2004-07-18 00:29:48 UTC
Permalink
JESUS WAS NOT THE MESSIAH.
Post by L Perez
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
I am JEWISH.
hmm... so you hate Paul because he left the Pharisees and followed the
Messiah...
you think the Pharisees were right?
L Perez
2004-07-17 10:57:08 UTC
Permalink
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
BTW, thanx for the disparaging remarks... though as a true follower of the
Messiah I am not obliged to return them.
Emma
2004-07-17 12:42:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
BTW, thanx for the disparaging remarks... though as a true follower of the
Messiah I am not obliged to return them.
Who told you that?? There are Christian
posters here (alt messianic) who have got
disparaging remarks
down to a fine art. And, apparently, they
are biblically justified.

So repent, repent you snake! Go and sin
no more, you dog/swine! God will swat
you like a mosguito and send you to
burn for eternity in the fires of HELL! <grin>

(.....that sort of thing! :-)

~~~~~
Emma
~~~~~
L Perez
2004-07-18 01:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emma
Post by L Perez
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
BTW, thanx for the disparaging remarks... though as a true follower of the
Messiah I am not obliged to return them.
Who told you that??
Colossians 3:8






There are Christian
Post by Emma
posters here (alt messianic) who have got
disparaging remarks
down to a fine art.
you are mistaken. if they are doing so, they are false Christians. please
learn Matthew 7:21-23
ysbryd drwg
2004-07-19 14:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emma
There are Christian
Post by Emma
posters here (alt messianic) who have got
disparaging remarks
down to a fine art.
you are mistaken. if they are doing so, they are false Christians. please
learn Matthew 7:21-23
This has always amazed me. People can be considered christians all the way up
until they do something (on purpose or accidental) that goes against
doctrine. Then the rest of the christians quickly denounce them as 'not true
christians'.

Is this not like calling someone human until they do something animalistic
(such as peeing in the woods) then denouncing them as 'not really human'?
Or perhaps calling someone American until they abuse a prisoner in another
country then saying 'they are not real americans'.

Accept the fact that your kind are just as flawed as the rest of us. What I
think you meant to say or rather how it should be said is 'They are not
following your god's teachings and should change their ways.'. A parent
doesn't disown a child when they make a mistake, that teach that child not to
make it again. Put another way as you consider yourselves brothers and
sisters in the faith, You can renounce the action but you cannot renounce the
relative.

--
"I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, then you
will know why I dismiss yours."
(Stephen F. Roberts)




To email me, please ring the bell further south.
Patricia Heil
2004-07-18 00:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
BTW, thanx for the disparaging remarks... though as a true follower of the
Messiah I am not obliged to return them.
JESUS WAS NOT THE MESSIAH.
Emma
2004-07-17 12:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
I understand why practising homosexuals, feminists and unrepentant sinners
hate Paul and wish to remove his writings from the NT but why is it that you
hate him so?
Why are you trying your best to insult those who reject
Paul's writings rather than debating fairly?

Paul's teaching was inconsistent with Jesus'
teaching IMO. Paul taught Jews to abandon the Law.
Jesus did not.

~~~~~
Emma
~~~~~
L Perez
2004-07-18 01:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emma
Post by L Perez
I understand why practising homosexuals, feminists and unrepentant sinners
hate Paul and wish to remove his writings from the NT but why is it that you
hate him so?
Why are you trying your best to insult those who reject
Paul's writings rather than debating fairly?
please, where is the insult? I merely said I understand their agenda.
Post by Emma
Paul's teaching was inconsistent with Jesus'
teaching IMO. Paul taught Jews to abandon the Law.
Jesus did not.
please learn Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:21, 22; Luke 5:37, 38
Jesus established a new covenant which rendered the law no longer necessary.
Everyone under the law was condemned by it for they could not live up to it
perfectly. Please learn Matthew 22:37-40; Luke 22:20; Luke 16:16
Jesus established a "new covenant" which supercedes the old covenant and
it's law codes.
b***@yahoo.com
2004-07-18 20:07:15 UTC
Permalink
"He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon
better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then
should no place have been sought for the second."

-- Hebrews 8:6-7
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-16 20:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-29 14:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@yahoo.com
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved."
-- Acts 4:10-12
That's a response?

Stick to being a believer.

Informed discourse is beyond you.

M.
L Perez
2004-07-17 08:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth,
a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking
for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are
but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners
it isn't very convincing to me.
#1.
How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?
there is no godhead, only the Father
YHVH, the Son Jesus and their power to
manipulate the laws of physics, the holy spirit.
Two seperate beings and
their invisible power, no "godhead"
please learn
John 17:3-5
John 20:17
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
<shakes head>
Why does every guy with a point to make assume learning is the key to
right practise and right belief where religion is concerned?
perhaps because Christ says it is
John 17:3
Post by Michael O'Neill
But to your question.
I was raised to respect the Trinity as the Godhead, so perhaps we're
talking semantics here.
The Blessed Trinity is defined as being conposed of three devine persons
in the one God in my cathechism.
Its one of the Mysteries.
What does yours say?
all 15 of my Bibles mean the same things at those scriptures I cited... did
you read them? There is no "mystery" the 'trinity godhead' is a tradition of
man that God's Word The Bible does not support.
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
referred to Genesis.
The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in
My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.
How could you have missed this?
Genesis is not a myth either.
Its a creation myth.
Ask the pope if you don't believe me.
so the pope is now a higher authority than God, who instructed Moses to
write the account?!?
Patricia Heil
2004-07-18 00:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth,
a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking
for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are
but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners
it isn't very convincing to me.
#1.
How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?
there is no godhead, only the Father
YHVH, the Son Jesus and their power to
manipulate the laws of physics, the holy spirit.
Two seperate beings and
their invisible power, no "godhead"
please learn
John 17:3-5
John 20:17
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
<shakes head>
Why does every guy with a point to make assume learning is the key to
right practise and right belief where religion is concerned?
perhaps because Christ says it is
John 17:3
Post by Michael O'Neill
But to your question.
I was raised to respect the Trinity as the Godhead, so perhaps we're
talking semantics here.
The Blessed Trinity is defined as being conposed of three devine persons
in the one God in my cathechism.
Its one of the Mysteries.
What does yours say?
all 15 of my Bibles mean the same things at those scriptures I cited... did
you read them? There is no "mystery" the 'trinity godhead' is a tradition of
man that God's Word The Bible does not support.
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
referred to Genesis.
The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in
My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.
How could you have missed this?
Genesis is not a myth either.
Its a creation myth.
Ask the pope if you don't believe me.
so the pope is now a higher authority than God, who instructed Moses to
write the account?!?
JESUS HAS NO AUTHORITY.
Matt Silberstein
2004-07-16 02:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.
And some see Genesis as a discussion of God's relationship with the
world, not a description of events. Genesis 1 tells us that God is not
the Sky, God is not the Ocean, God is not the Land, God made all of
those things.
Post by Michael O'Neill
After all, if you don't have a handle on...
"where did we come from and who created the world?"
...you're not going to survive long in the priest business.
You'd need to be pretty clueless not to see that straight off.
And if you weren't so ignorant you
would understand that when G-d created
those things, time had not been created yet...
Time is a measure of change. If there is no change, then time has not
passed. Given that Genesis is a myth, but accepting its internal limits
for a second, its obvious that for God to have "done" anything, he must
have done so "in time".
Can you point out when "time" is stated to occur in Genesis?
Try:

"At the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth, when
the earth was wild and waste, darkness over the face of Ocean,
rushing-spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters --
God said: Let there be light! And there was light.

(Fox translation)

Time, for the "heavens and the earth" begins then, but it was not the
beginning of time.
Post by Michael O'Neill
I don't
think its stated per se, but my recollection might be faulty. Not stated,
it is therefore assumed, since all things must occur "in" time for them
to be "real" to us, the inside of black holes notwithstanding.
Real to us? Sure. I don't think you are arguing for what you want to
argue for.
Post by Michael O'Neill
But you refuse to study the following
Well, actually Riain, all you need to study to understand Genesis is how
to read. Its pretty straightforward on its most basic level, like a lot
of Old Testament Stuff. It was designed to instruct the semi-literate, so
verbal jousting is at a minimum.
Actually Genesis, like the rest of the Torah, is not all that simple.
It is a rather complex book with some complex structure. Is the 3 and
3 pattern of Genesis 1 obvious? Do you know the "pun" in Adam's name?
Do you know that the word for heaven is a combination of the word for
fire and for water? Have you considered why God says "it was good"
sometimes and not others? In fact, have you read a good translation? I
recommend Fox, it is considered the best available English translation
right now.

[snip]


--
Matt Silberstein

Do in order to understand.
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-29 14:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Matt Silberstein wrote:

<snip>
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by Michael O'Neill
Christians accept it as a myth,
a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be
speaking for the Godhead.
And some see Genesis as a discussion
of God's relationship with the
world, not a description of events.
Genesis 1 tells us that God is not
the Sky, God is not the Ocean, God
is not the Land, God made all of
those things.
Accepted.

<snip>
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by Michael O'Neill
Time is a measure of change.
If there is no change, then time has not
passed. Given that Genesis is a
myth, but accepting its internal limits
for a second, its obvious that for
God to have "done" anything, he must
have done so "in time".
Can you point out when "time"
is stated to occur in Genesis?
"At the beginning of God's creating
of the heavens and the earth, when
the earth was wild and waste,
darkness over the face of Ocean,
rushing-spirit of God hovering
over the face of the waters --
God said: Let there be light!
And there was light.
(Fox translation)
Time, for the "heavens and the earth"
begins then, but it was not the
beginning of time.
That's not a logical assumption.
The translation you refer to confirms
that Heaven and Earth had already been
created when God said "let there be light!"
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by Michael O'Neill
I don't
think its stated per se, but my
recollection might be faulty. Not stated,
it is therefore assumed, since all things
must occur "in" time for them
to be "real" to us, the inside
of black holes notwithstanding.
Real to us? Sure. I don't think you
are arguing for what you want to
argue for.
Its about time.

<snip>
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by Michael O'Neill
Well, actually Riain, all you need
to study to understand Genesis is how
to read. Its pretty straightforward
on its most basic level, like a lot
of Old Testament Stuff. It was
designed to instruct the semi-literate, so
verbal jousting is at a minimum.
Actually Genesis, like the rest of the
Torah, is not all that simple.
It is a rather complex book with some
complex structure. Is the 3 and
3 pattern of Genesis 1 obvious?
Do you know the "pun" in Adam's name?
Do you know that the word for heaven
is a combination of the word for
fire and for water? Have you considered
why God says "it was good"
sometimes and not others? In fact,
have you read a good translation? I
recommend Fox, it is considered the
best available English translation
right now.
Is this relavant to belief, these clever word games and syntactical
observations. How does any one of them lead to someone becoming a better
person or folowing a moral path. You sound like someone who, asked to
comment on a Caravaggio or Raphael masterpiece, points out the
representations of the patron in some of the figures, yet ignores both
the message of the work itself and the wordless experience of the
picture.

<snip>

<smiles>

Do you know that many people used to extol the virtues of Georgian
Architecture in Dublin, marvelling at the subtle changes in window
heights and parapet heights, the changes in brickwork, the marvellous
doorways?

Speculative Building sometimes produces beauty, but its seldom intended.

M.
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-15 22:11:40 UTC
Permalink
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